General Israel Folau

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surfin

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All this time I thought there was something wrong with me but finally I can attribute my life time of wanking to bullying. Thank God. ( and jonno)
Does fornicating with yourself constitute a trip to Hell.

Another thing that's got me wondering, If Folau has his contract torn up, for after all something that was misguided but certainly not illegal and that pushes his mental health to the edge, loss of income, abuse from social media, the mainstream media and point scoring politicians, aimed at him and his family, by a whole heap of people that have decided their opinion is more right than his, and he starts to despair about his options and place in the world, and he finds himself in a place where ending it all seems like the only option, will all the current, he needs to look past his beliefs and be more inclusive experts, suddenly go shit we should have done more to help him if he does do something unthinkable. Because as far as I can see the shit storm directed at him seems way over the top for words that aren't even his.
 
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rascallarewind

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Germany in the 1930s was a very bad place for a lot of reasons. Germans and Jews were at war (which neither side won), and as we all know war is hell. I'd rather not get into that topic here if that's OK, as neither the Nazis or the Jews were Christians and this is a debate about Christanity and some of it's more controversial viewpoints.


England is 90% "white" today. So if an institution is less than 90% white in England there's a case to be made that white people are being discriminated against in that institution. lol

As for Male dominating industries, it's not like men can have children, and I know I certainly don't want to stay home with the kids. Woman (on average, that's the key to this whole point I'm about to make, and anyone who can't get their head around the law of averages can just throw personal attacks my way, I don't care) are way more inclined to want to give up a career to stay home and look after kids than men are.

Of course I too can pull up single incidences of men and women who buck this trend. But it's not the norm, and shouldn't be expressed as if it is the norm in an honest debate.

If we're not having an honest debate, but instead a battle of wits then by all means be my guest.


If you live in a British Decedent Majority nation, then you're going to see a lot of British decedents all over the place. We all share that culture,,,, and almost all of the world's population find it a lot easier to relate to people they easily understand (ie people from their own culture). There's nothing you can do about this. It's like pissing into the wind. Just respect the majority and try to learn their ways. You'll find we're very friendly when you do that. Just like in any nation around the world.


Sorry, his views are representative of the teachings of the Bible. There are a lot of super moderate Christians who don't read those sections. I agree.


I agree that the rugby organizations are free to determine their own codes of conduct for their employees. But I don't think this is one that should be enforced. It smacks of religious intolerance to me. What he said wasn't evil at all. He's just promoting his way of life to the world. Faithful marriage between a man and a women. In essence, what he's saying is if you're not a good Husband, in all [these] ways, you'll suffer the consequences.

So if you don't believe in hell, then there's really nothing scary about it at all.

I realize it's not for everyone, but surely he's allowed to promote it to his own people from his own Twitter account?
I always welcome robust and spirited intellectual debate, and I can assure you that I am not trying to engage with you in a battle of wits.

I take on board that you would prefer to move on from the issues surrounding Jewishness that I have raised in response to your comments, but I feel I have to respond to certain things that I find troubling. To say that Germany was at war with the Jews and that it was a war that neither side won is an astonishing thing to say. Nazi Germany implemented a programme of systematic murder of European Jews, resulting in the death of around two thirds of the Jewish population. They did not do it alone, Christian countries such as France greatly assisted them through the revocation of citizenship and subsequent deportation of their Jewish population. The global Jewish population in 1939 was 17 million, today, the total global Jewish population is estimated to be just 14 million people - an astonishingly low number. It is estimated that 6 million jewish people were murdered during the Holocaust. Recent studies show that there were 5.8 million German casualties during World War II, a figure which includes those murdered by the Nazis. Germany's 1939 population was 64 million people. If as you say Germany was at war with the Jews and it was war that neither won, then I simply must disagree. It seems more than apparent to me that there was one clear victor.

You are again correct, the demography of Great Britain is close to 90% White British European. However, a report released by the British government in 2017, showed findings that even the predominately white government acknowledge reveals an attitude of privileging white people. For example, police are six times more likely to stop and search ethnic minorities than white people, only 1% of judges in British courts is anything other than white, and that black, Pakistani and Bangladeshi Britons are more than twice as likely to be unemployed than white people. Here is the link to the report for anyone interested: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/race-disparity-audit

Regarding the teaching of the bible, you do your argument no favours by ignoring the fact that as society progresses, Christendom adapts. The oft-cited book of Leviticus perhaps being the best to demonstrate this. There are an awful lot of devout Christians who do not adhere to the passages of this book too. So, just as western society has progressed to a point where Homosexuality is widely accepted, so too has some, but not all, of the church.

This leads me to your argument where you advise "to respect the majority and try to learn their ways." I can't say that I can ever agree with this sentiment, but if we are to use this argument and apply it to Folau and what he posted, then this is exactly what he did not do. Judging by the reaction of his colleagues, fans, and administrators of the game, Folau's views are very much of the minority.

Israel Folau is free to express his beliefs on any social media platform he chooses without being censored, that is freedom of speech and that is what has occurred. Israel Folau is not allowed to broadcast a message that contradicts the message of inclusion that his employers are working to spread. That is breach of contract and is why working as Rugby Union player for the ARU is no longer a viable career option for him.
 
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surfin

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Regarding the teaching of the bible, you do your argument no favours by ignoring the fact that as society progresses, Christendom adapts. The oft-cited book of Leviticus perhaps being the best to demonstrate this. There are an awful lot of devout Christians who do not adhere to the passages of this book too. So, just as western society has progressed to a point where Homosexuality is widely accepted, so too has some, but not all, of the church.
We have a whole thread going on this topic and I'm not going to get into the Nazi v Jew thing, but as a non believer I'd like to question this point. The bible is the word of God except when it's not? That's the problem with Christianity and generally most religions, you can quote it to suit your beliefs when it fits your argument, but then claim you have moved on from that point when it doesn't. See in my world that's called hypocrisy. Let's keep it simple, during the "Troubles" in Ireland we had two groups, reading the same bible, believing in the same God but killing the shit out of each other. Now this was due to more than just who's version of God was right, but God and the bible were front and centre of this, and just like Folau's misdemeanor the only difference between who is good and who is evil is someones belief that they are right and the other is wrong. That sure as shit won't get you a conviction in a court unless a law is broken and unfortunately for the outraged, as it stands now Folau hasn't broken any law, unless that passage he posted and therefore the bible are ruled illegal and that's not going to happen since our law makers use the bible and prayer to the Christian God at each sitting.

Oddly the further this goes on the more it's looking like the law is what's going to prove Folau had every right to do what he did, ain't that a bitch.
 
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Te Aro

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So in this hypothetical, one player believes "Gay is a bad lifestyle choice", and another believes he was born being Gay?

Both are excellent footy players who would win us games, and both would result in a small number of fans leaving the club.

So is it a case of Good Riddance to any fans who left because of either?

Or is it only Good Riddance for those who don't like Gay guy, and those fans who don't like Falou are the good guys?

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion right.
You're comparing apples with oranges. People don't choose to be gay and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But there is something wrong with spreading hatred and people can choose not to do that.
 
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bruce

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Let's keep it simple, during the "Troubles" in Ireland we had two groups, reading the same bible, believing in the same God but killing the shit out of each other.
That is one take on it, but there is more.

The traditional Celtic Irish were Catholic, the "plantation settlers" were Protestant Scots and English. The Irish are hard bastards, and always have been and the Protestants have always been scared of them because they were outnumbered in the south, and aren't much of a majority in the north.

So the Protestants took a hard line to protect themselves as they saw fit, and the Irish were just as bloody tough in arguing their point.

The religious difference was a side issue. Add that to the economic downturn in Belfast from the demise of ship building and industry and you had a powder keg. It was never about religion really. Just saying like.
 
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jonno

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I always welcome robust and spirited intellectual debate, and I can assure you that I am not trying to engage with you in a battle of wits.

I take on board that you would prefer to move on from the issues surrounding Jewishness that I have raised in response to your comments, but I feel I have to respond to certain things that I find troubling. To say that Germany was at war with the Jews and that it was a war that neither side won is an astonishing thing to say. Nazi Germany implemented a programme of systematic murder of European Jews, resulting in the death of around two thirds of the Jewish population. They did not do it alone, Christian countries such as France greatly assisted them through the revocation of citizenship and subsequent deportation of their Jewish population. The global Jewish population in 1939 was 17 million, today, the total global Jewish population is estimated to be just 14 million people - an astonishingly low number. It is estimated that 6 million jewish people were murdered during the Holocaust. Recent studies show that there were 5.8 million German casualties during World War II, a figure which includes those murdered by the Nazis. Germany's 1939 population was 64 million people. If as you say Germany was at war with the Jews and it was war that neither won, then I simply must disagree. It seems more than apparent to me that there was one clear victor.
That's great, I like a good debate as well

Germany lost WW2 and their country was divide up. And it was a good thing they did as well, because my Grandad was in prison there when the war ended. I'm not sure how you get victory out of that.

The Jews lost that war as well. For the reasons you stated.

Like I said, this is off topic. If you want to carry this on in another thread by my guest.

You are again correct, the demography of Great Britain is close to 90% White British European. However, a report released by the British government in 2017, showed findings that even the predominately white government acknowledge reveals an attitude of privileging white people. For example, police are six times more likely to stop and search ethnic minorities than white people, only 1% of judges in British courts is anything other than white, and that black, Pakistani and Bangladeshi Britons are more than twice as likely to be unemployed than white people. Here is the link to the report for anyone interested: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/race-disparity-audit
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/race-disparity-audit
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/race-disparity-audit
It's funny. I'm the one standing up for the Tongan Christian in Australia. But yet I'm being lectured on the unfairness of English institutions towards minorities. lol

Regarding the teaching of the bible, you do your argument no favours by ignoring the fact that as society progresses, Christendom adapts. The oft-cited book of Leviticus perhaps being the best to demonstrate this. There are an awful lot of devout Christians who do not adhere to the passages of this book too. So, just as western society has progressed to a point where Homosexuality is widely accepted, so too has some, but not all, of the church.
I agree. But I still think people have the right to practice their religions. Even if I don't agree with it personally. As long as they aren't taking any "actions" (this is the key word) that are harmful towards anyone else, they are free to do as the please. I don't think being thought police leads to good outcomes. Let people speak their minds, and give them better answers. But don't bankrupt them, because when you do that then it is you who is taking the harmful action, against a person who is using words that can be easily ignored.

This leads me to your argument where you advise "to respect the majority and try to learn their ways." I can't say that I can ever agree with this sentiment, but if we are to use this argument and apply it to Folau and what he posted, then this is exactly what he did not do. Judging by the reaction of his colleagues, fans, and administrators of the game, Folau's views are very much of the minority.
If I move to a new country I'll respect the majority and learn their ways. If I moved to Tonga I'm going to learn Tongan and get to know their customs, or at least make a good effort to learn them. I don't see what's wrong with that. Unless someone is planning to conquer a nation of course. In which case to the victor goes the spoils I guess. You tell me.

Israel Folau is free to express his beliefs on any social media platform he chooses without being censored, that is freedom of speech and that is what has occurred. Israel Folau is not allowed to broadcast a message that contradicts the message of inclusion that his employers are working to spread. That is breach of contract and is why working as Rugby Union player for the ARU is no longer a viable career option for him.
I don't think the ARU should be punishing Falou for his non-crime. Let him speak, and give a better answer. That's the only way to keep the peace IMO.

Otherwise he gets lost in an echo chamber that will tolerate him, and who knows what happens to him then. Instead of becoming more moderate, he'd probably become more radical. Food for thought?
 
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jonno

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You're comparing apples with oranges. People don't choose to be gay and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But there is something wrong with spreading hatred and people can choose not to do that.
I don't enjoy the whole idea of gayness. I was born this way. I find it physically revolting. I won't vomit or anything, but thinking about it is mighty uncomfortable. I can't do anything about that.

It's not hate, it's just how I naturally feel. And like I said before I have friends who are gay. I don't tell them how I feel about it and they don't do gay stuff in front of me. It works out great.

Are you going to tolerate me and my natural state now that you know this?

Or are you going to condemn me as an evil homophobic?
 
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The traditional Celtic Irish were Catholic, the "plantation settlers" were Protestant Scots and English. The Irish are hard bastards, and always have been and the Protestants have always been scared of them because they were outnumbered in the south, and aren't much of a majority in the north.

So the Protestants took a hard line to protect themselves as they saw fit, and the Irish were just as bloody tough in arguing their point.

The religious difference was a side issue. Add that to the economic downturn in Belfast from the demise of ship building and industry and you had a powder keg. It was never about religion really. Just saying like.
What!!!!!?????

This is un-fucking-believable.

Perhaps it was the way a million Irish died of famine in the 1840s and another million left the country at the same time to try for a better life. Dying while their overlords from across the Irish Sea on their grand estates in Ireland continued to export wheat and other food from Ireland. What I’ve just written is fact and is very well-documented. It’s enough to make any country’s people push and push very hard for nationhood. Hats off to them for that.

I knew a lot of Irish people back in England. I worked with them, I worked for them, they were my friends. As to their being “hard bastards”...... I despair. They’re great people.
 
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We live in an insane world.

It almost makes you want to believe in an all loving, all powerful God.

Lucky for us we have the footy is all I can say.
 
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Folau is entitled to say what he likes but he must also be prepared for a response to what he says as well.
If he indeed had a clause in his contract around social media etiquette then he surely had to know what he was risking by doing this.
In saying all that it can be a bit contradictory that some things are open to criticism but others are off limit
 
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jonno

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What!!!!!?????

This is un-fucking-believable.

Perhaps it was the way a million Irish died of famine in the 1840s and another million left the country at the same time in try for a better life. Dying while their overlords from across the Irish Sea on their grand estates in Ireland continued to export wheat and other food from Ireland. What I’ve just written is fact and is very well-documented. It’s enough to make any country’s people push and push very hard for nationhood. Hats off to them for that.

I knew a lot of Irish people back in England. I worked with them, I worked for them, they were my friends. As to their being “hard bastards”...... I despair. They’re great people.
Did you know that the first Irish in America were brought over as slaves.

It really is amazing how far the West has come in these last few hundred years.
 
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Did you know that the first Irish in America were brought over as slaves.

It really is amazing how far the West has come in these last few hundred years.
Shhh 🤫 it doesn’t fit the narrative when mentioned that whites were slaves too :p
 
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Shhh 🤫 it doesn’t fit the narrative when mentioned that whites were slaves too :p
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves!
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

It's almost as if everyone was playing the slave game up to the 1830s, when Great Britain became the first nation in the history of planet earth to outlaw owning other humans. First in the whole world! You could almost call them the world leader when it comes to human freedom.

Sorry, there I go again shredding the Narrative.
 
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Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves!
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

It's almost as if everyone was playing the slave game up to the 1830s, when Great Britain became the first nation in the history of planet earth to outlaw owning other humans. First in the whole world! You could almost call them the world leader when it comes to human freedom.

Sorry, there I go again shredding the Narrative.
Sadly, we haven't been able to liberate that massive group of slaves, the wage slaves. In the last 30 odd years their predicament has worsened.
 
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bruce

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As to their being “hard bastards”...... I despair.
As I am of 100% Irish ancestry I can say what I like.

The Celtic Irish are hard bastards, good bastards, but hard. They have been scrapping since way before the potato famine as well. If I recall the Irish have a massive amount of gallantry awards including Victoria Crosses in the British Army.

My point was religion had nothing to do with it. The Celts were Catholic, the Plantation settlers were Protestant, but religion had nothing to do with it. If they were bloody Islamists the Catholics would have given them a hiding.

As for the Potato famine, no surprise there, English history stinks like shite, try reading up on the Great Bengal famine, that had nothing to do with religion either but was even more serious that the potato famine and the English were involved there as well.

Now next time read my post properly before you get off your rocker. ;)
 
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As I am of 100% Irish ancestry I can say what I like.

The Celtic Irish are hard bastards, good bastards, but hard. They have been scrapping since way before the potato famine as well. If I recall the Irish have a massive amount of gallantry awards including Victoria Crosses in the British Army.

My point was religion had nothing to do with it. The Celts were Catholic, the Plantation settlers were Protestant, but religion had nothing to do with it. If they were bloody Islamists the Catholics would have given them a hiding.

As for the Potato famine, no surprise there, English history stinks like shite, try reading up on the Great Bengal famine, that had nothing to do with religion either but was even more serious that the potato famine and the English were involved there as well.

Now next time read my post properly before you get off your rocker. ;)
Large numbers of families in the NW of England, Cumbria and Lancashire, as well as Glasgow area of Scotland, are the descends of immigrants escaping the potato famine. Mine included
 
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