General Is NZ now a Police State ?

Sack Cappy

Waterboy
Jun 7, 2021
1
My mates reckon the Fuzz can now barge into your home with "NO" Warrant

I reckon the Covid crisis has given the Government an excuse to look for Patriots.

Right Wingers who may or may not pose a threat

Re the Christchurch Tragedy

Comments ...
100% correct.
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
22,167
These kinds of stories fortunately are rare.

Munchausen by proxy by the looks...the deliberate harm of a child to gain attention.

Very lucky the child survived.

 
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bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
19,512
Wasn’t sure which thread to comment in but I was just reading a story of 14 month Sofia Taueki Jackson murdered by one of the 4 adults in the house a year ago. The whole 4 have supplied police with misleading statements over that time and her murderer still walks the streets. Absolutely disgusting that all these years later, not much has changed since the Kahu twins has the same injustice.
A tragic story. What do you suggest the Police do about it? Just asking like.
 

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
19,512
Convict all those in the house in both instances. They are either witnesses or accomplices and not cooperating with the police. Send a message that this is unacceptable.
You have legal training?
This isn't a Police state.
Saying nothing works pretty well in New Zealand.
 

Noitall

1st Grade Fringe
Aug 21, 2019
2,338
You have legal training?
This isn't a Police state.
Saying nothing works pretty well in New Zealand.
No, I don’t have legal training but do have family that work around the law field. I don’t believe it needs to be a police state to have a process in which those holding up justice are punished when it becomes evident that they are withholding evidence to save the family member from punishment. As you said in your post before, capital punishment achieves nothing but far worse is no punishment at all.
 

wizards rage

1st Grade Fringe
Apr 18, 2016
4,553
Tauranga
These kinds of stories fortunately are rare.

Munchausen by proxy by the looks...the deliberate harm of a child to gain attention.

Very lucky the child survived.

Tragic… Mental health issues I would say…

In saying that, no real punishment? Just home detention but name suppression. Wow. Seemed a lot more planning involved that just a stupid fit of anger harming a child. The next Kahui killer may as well just own up and then get on with their life again…
 
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Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
22,167
Tragic… Mental health issues I would say…

In saying that, no real punishment? Just home detention but name suppression. Wow. Seemed a lot more planning involved that just a stupid fit of anger harming a child. The next Kahui killer may as well just own up and then get on with their life again…
Yes the profile of the case is actually a text book definition of the Munchausens by proxy diagnosis..

The only reason it is not mentioned in the article is the offenders rights to have their health information kept private.

What especially concerns me is the role of social media...a literal audience and platform to feed the disorder.

As for the punishment, an undoubted result of the mental health diagnosis.

The thinking being, that someone with this disorder, who has had access to their children removed, is not a risk to the general population.

Whether I agree with the sentence or not..is another thing entirely. I think they should have been imprisoned.
 

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
19,512
No, I don’t have legal training but do have family that work around the law field. I don’t believe it needs to be a police state to have a process in which those holding up justice are punished when it becomes evident that they are withholding evidence to save the family member from punishment. As you said in your post before, capital punishment achieves nothing but far worse is no punishment at all.
The law takes that attitude that it is better to let guilty people go free rather than convict an innocent person.

Some police in the south of the United States strongly disagree with that principle.

The Police would have investigated that case, and any decision to charge or otherwise was probably referred to the internal legal department or the local Crown Prosecutor, who is non police.

The plods who attended would have had little say in that decision.

The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not what probably happened.

They have had cases like that which got bogged down with a bunch of liars all blaming somebody else.

It isn't an easy job, as sickening as the crime is.

The real fault is with the welfare agencies who should have seen there was a problem and removed the kid.

However they are overworked and underfunded and get criticized to high hell if they remove kids from their parents.

Not an easy solution, sorry to say.

P.S. In a Police state you would lock the whole house house up, and beat the living heyzeuss out of them until somebody started talking. The trouble with that is you would be back to square one because they would all lie to save their own butts.

So then and depending where you are you might:

Line them all up against the wall and shoot them for trying to escape.
or
Figure out who you thought did it and frame the dude or dudess.

What would you suggest?
 

dean

1st Grade Fringe
Mar 13, 2016
1,266
The law takes that attitude that it is better to let guilty people go free rather than convict an innocent person.

Some police in the south of the United States strongly disagree with that principle.

The Police would have investigated that case, and any decision to charge or otherwise was probably referred to the internal legal department or the local Crown Prosecutor, who is non police.

The plods who attended would have had little say in that decision.

The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not what probably happened.

They have had cases like that which got bogged down with a bunch of liars all blaming somebody else.

It isn't an easy job, as sickening as the crime is.

The real fault is with the welfare agencies who should have seen there was a problem and removed the kid.

However they are overworked and underfunded and get criticized to high hell if they remove kids from their parents.

Not an easy solution, sorry to say.

P.S. In a Police state you would lock the whole house house up, and beat the living heyzeuss out of them until somebody started talking. The trouble with that is you would be back to square one because they would all lie to save their own butts.

So then and depending where you are you might:

Line them all up against the wall and shoot them for trying to escape.
or
Figure out who you thought did it and frame the dude or dudess.

What would you suggest?
Option 2.
 

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
19,512
Option 2.
That might be ok for Roscoe P. Coltrane,
1628910375577.png
but here you will end up in an investigative podcast like the Dean Fuller Sands murder.

Ok, it was an infant, but otherwise the situation was similar.

 
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Noitall

1st Grade Fringe
Aug 21, 2019
2,338
The law takes that attitude that it is better to let guilty people go free rather than convict an innocent person.

Some police in the south of the United States strongly disagree with that principle.

The Police would have investigated that case, and any decision to charge or otherwise was probably referred to the internal legal department or the local Crown Prosecutor, who is non police.

The plods who attended would have had little say in that decision.

The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not what probably happened.

They have had cases like that which got bogged down with a bunch of liars all blaming somebody else.

It isn't an easy job, as sickening as the crime is.

The real fault is with the welfare agencies who should have seen there was a problem and removed the kid.

However they are overworked and underfunded and get criticized to high hell if they remove kids from their parents.

Not an easy solution, sorry to say.

P.S. In a Police state you would lock the whole house house up, and beat the living heyzeuss out of them until somebody started talking. The trouble with that is you would be back to square one because they would all lie to save their own butts.

So then and depending where you are you might:

Line them all up against the wall and shoot them for trying to escape.
or
Figure out who you thought did it and frame the dude or dudess.

What would you suggest?
In the cases of Bain and Arthur Allen Thomas your option 2 scenario is something our police force is accustomed to, so I’m not sure about as you say, letting the guilty go in case of prosecuting an innocent person. I think the police state you described is exactly the way island nations react to such issues in the village, they are sat on a seat in the middle of the room and abuse is dished out though I’m not saying that’s the answer either.
 

Gizzyfan

Warriors 1st Grader
Jan 2, 2013
5,401
There are laws already that would help if they were stiffened up, such as Obstruction and Failing to Provide the Necessaries of Life. You also have to realise that when these horrors occur there are Lawyers literally clamouring to represent the suspects. This is because our Justice system is adversarial. The Prosecution (Crown) accuses and attempts to prove the case. The Defence are trying to establish a doubt, that is all. There is lots of publicity and legal aid.

The right to silence is well known, however, there are exceptions. When you fill out a Customs Declaration at the airport you have no right to silence over those standard questions. It should not be an every day thing to remove that right but maybe if approved by the High Court.

As for Government Agencies, they have protocols they have to follow. For instance OT has where possible the child will stay within the family. Even though the family is often the problem. When Social Workers and Cops start their careers they are far apart in their beliefs. As both get more experienced they become closer and closer.

Funnily enough the people who know the most about these families are generally never consulted, Public Health Nurses, Midwives and Teachers. Add in the enablers, those who find excuses, and things are really difficult. Then on top of that you have poverty, alcoholism, drugs, mental health, domestic violence. Then there are rules that stop information sharing

It just goes on and on, Government do not do anything meaningful, all Hui, no dooey. We just have ambulances at the bottom of cliffs and everything is just a fucking circle.
 

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
19,512
Gotta take that with a grain of salt. We are two places below Oz and one above the USA. Any eastern European country has to be looked at, the sex exploitation from that part of the world leaves NZ for dead.
 

bruce

Warriors 1st Grader
Contributor
Sep 1, 2015
19,512
The way this society protects a certain demographic is illustrated in the way it soft handles paedophiles.

Mind boggling.

There was an old dude up north convicted of fiddling young girls, for decades too. Got home detention but just kept on leaving home and fiddling little girls.

What pisses me off is they are "harmless" looking old farts now but when they were committing these offences they were neither old, nor harmless.

The harm these low forms of life cause is intergenerational and the human cost beyond belief. Do these fecking judges know that?

I am all for deterrent sentences in this regard. It is a crime on a par with meth dealing IMO.

Rant over.
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
22,167
Probably should start another thread on Forensics, the Criminal Justice system and high profile crimes rather than raise some issues in a thread called is New Zealand a Police state.

However, some of our Cops are doing it tough at the moment, this situation in Timaru with the murdered kids is terrible.
Local police will be hurting.

Then we also have the very sad situation of the missing Children and their Father in Marakopa.

It has been a horrible week or so for tragedy and young families.

We often forget what a hard job the Police and other first responders and members of the Criminal Justice service have, lately people are more aware of how incredibly difficult mental health work is....but people tend to just assume Cops and other Forensic workers can take it.

This type of work comes with a heavy cost. Some unique individuals can process it better than normal people.

Most Cops however, are normal people. staff in these areas tend to become good at hiding the horror, at controlling their reactions, however very few get away clean and unaffected.
 

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