General International Representation

  • Thread starter Kaiaua krusher_old
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Kaiaua krusher_old

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I have been watching this forum and the reaction of posters to the decision of players to pledge allegiance to their Country.

Karmichael Hunt has been much maligned and called a traitor for choosing Australia over good old NZ. I think that he has trusted his ability to be the best in the best League team in the World, against the worst odds for him reaching his goals. I say this because each and every one of us reckon that Aussie has the ability to pick 3 teams to beat anyone. Look who is up against to make State of Origin and the Test squad.

Nathan Fien on the other didn't discover his NZ born grandmother until he missed State of Origin selection, which incidentally coincided with the ANZAC test. I didn't hear him declaring his allegiance for the UK test either.

My point is this, is he in your eyes a traitor, and worse than that willing to take second cab off the rank just to say he has played Tri Nations International Football?

I am not picking on Feiney as he has to live with the consequences of his decision as do the selectors. There are also numerous other examples, but don't mention to me the Cayless boys. I know this family well and they are all born and bred Kiwis. Their grandparents live in Wellington and despite the fact the boys were born in Aussie, they have thrown their lot behind the Kiwis.

From my perpsective I could not change my allegiance half way through my career just for the sake of the opportunity to play international football. If I ain't good enough to represent my own Country, then I am damn sure I wouldn't prostitute my ability and play for a foreign country!

That is why the sooner the Warriors reach the point and have the ability to return to their founding document, the better the opportunity will be for our home grown players.
 

MiXmasterreece_old

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Kaiaua krusher said:
That is why the sooner the Warriors reach the point and have the ability to return to their founding document, the better the opportunity will be for our home grown players.

May I ask what the founding document you refer to entails ?
 

Kaiaua krusher_old

Guest
Basically the promotion of local league talent.

I don't begrudge the ability of the Club to choose whoever they want, and initially they had no option but to buy in experience and they still have to do that now. No problems because I reckon it will take another 10 years for the Club to be "self sufficient" playerwise so to speak. Nor am I that naive to belief we can keep all the homegrown talent. It's all about scales of economy.

They must never be constrained by who they can pick, but they could move further away from dependance on Aussie based players to provide the grunt and steel for a successful team.

In any event it is not the main theme of the post
 

Wiki_old

Guest
I couldn't care less if the Vodafone Warriors were all Australians.

I care that Fien wants and probably will play for New Zealand.

3 months of deciding doesn't do it for me.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
Hold up, first of all we've known for a very, very long time about how dodgy the way eligilibility rules for international footy works. It's obvious it's soemthing that needs a very, very serious look at.

But let us look at the team selection alone. When you want to play a team sport you look to gain the best players in each position possible. Sure there might be a few positions where one player on paper looks better than the other but the other guy has the better form so you go for him. (let us aussume ethnic background has nothing to do with this). Picking a team of players you would want the best there is right? Ok, so you do that.

Now let us bring the players' ethnic background into the equation. Now, lets say you want to pick a team and you have a choice between a player who is born and bred a kiwi and one is an aussie. One form the Aussie dude has that slight edge because he's been playing really well. But on paper the kiwi looks better for reasons of what he is and can be capable of and also coz he's...a kiwi (that seems to be many people's reasons as to why kiwi players should be picked soely for NZ). This is where I start to wonder about the situation.

We always talk about a player's form being important, its what keeps them in the team and so on. But apparently in international footy..who cares about form. You're a kiwi so you're in!

I'm not saying what KL has written is wrong, and I'm not picking on either Hohaia or Fien but it does seem that the only two sides in this whole sage is that you must be a born and bred person otherwise you are looked upon as just 'wanting attention at international level'.

Btw, I never liked Hunt's decision because I thought he had been seriously pressured into playing SOO and Australia. But I'd rather have Webby over Hunt anyday.
 

Kaiaua krusher_old

Guest
Ravs, what I am saying has got nothing to do with who deserves what ,or team selection, or anything about ethnic backgrounds.

The point is this - People have called KMH a traitor etc etc and you have seen that!!! The same people who welcome Fein into the Kiwis - you can't have it both ways.

Secondly Fein has had over 12 months in NZ to declare his allegiance and make himself available for the Anzac test and the UK Test. He didn't, because he also had a shot at SOO.

Thirdly you are making the assumption that I am filthy because Hohaia wasn't selected - get a life, it had nothing to do with that what so ever, after all its not the first time he has been dropped!!

Lastly from my perspective it is a matter of ethics and I wouldn't sell my soul to another country, just because I wasn't good enough in my own.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
Mate I wasn't having a go at you! Why would I? I was being general in terms of this whole situiation. It wasn't an attack at you!
 

MiXmasterreece_old

Guest
Kaiaua krusher said:
Ravs, what I am saying has got nothing to do with who deserves what ,or team selection, or anything about ethnic backgrounds.

The point is this - People have called KMH a traitor etc etc and you have seen that!!! The same people who welcome Fein into the Kiwis - you can't have it both ways.

Secondly Fein has had over 12 months in NZ to declare his allegiance and make himself available for the Anzac test and the UK Test. He didn't, because he also had a shot at SOO.

Thirdly you are making the assumption that I am filthy because Hohaia wasn't selected - get a life, it had nothing to do with that what so ever, after all its not the first time he has been dropped!!

Lastly from my perspective it is a matter of ethics and I wouldn't sell my soul to another country, just because I wasn't good enough in my own.

What if you began to sense a kinship with your new country of residence, develop a new found love for your adopted country and start to become disinfranchised with your country of birth?
 

Wiki_old

Guest
Kaiaua krusher said:
Ravs, what I am saying has got nothing to do with who deserves what ,or team selection, or anything about ethnic backgrounds.

The point is this - People have called KMH a traitor etc etc and you have seen that!!! The same people who welcome Fein into the Kiwis - you can't have it both ways.

Secondly Fein has had over 12 months in NZ to declare his allegiance and make himself available for the Anzac test and the UK Test. He didn't, because he also had a shot at SOO.

Thirdly you are making the assumption that I am filthy because Hohaia wasn't selected - get a life, it had nothing to do with that what so ever, after all its not the first time he has been dropped!!

Lastly from my perspective it is a matter of ethics and I wouldn't sell my soul to another country, just because I wasn't good enough in my own.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
Kaiaua krusher said:
Ravs, what I am saying has got nothing to do with who deserves what ,or team selection, or anything about ethnic backgrounds.

The point is this - People have called KMH a traitor etc etc and you have seen that!!! The same people who welcome Fein into the Kiwis - you can't have it both ways.

Secondly Fein has had over 12 months in NZ to declare his allegiance and make himself available for the Anzac test and the UK Test. He didn't, because he also had a shot at SOO.

Thirdly you are making the assumption that I am filthy because Hohaia wasn't selected - get a life, it had nothing to do with that what so ever, after all its not the first time he has been dropped!!

Lastly from my perspective it is a matter of ethics and I wouldn't sell my soul to another country, just because I wasn't good enough in my own.

Ok let me phrase this prooperly. Firstly, I know you weren't talking about the ethnicbackgrounds and as the such, but I was because as you pointe dout, some of the reactions on the form in the past about this has been about the fact Nathan is an Aussie.
2nd point- those who have called Hunt a traitor, I don't know their reasons but as I have said I thought he had been pressued into the stance because of where he was brought up..etc. But in Fien's case where some have been welconing; from the way I see it, he has the morale to want to do something for the kiwis; to play well and to be apart of it. Hence he wants to be one, compared to Hunt who had a dabble at wanting to play in the halves for the kiwis (beofre qld decided, oh hell lets grab him quick)so he fluffed his back a.s.a.a.p on us even when we left the door open for him anytime!
3rd I wasnt making an assumption about your thoughts on Hohaia ok? I was talking about in terms of 'example' I didn't refer to you when I talked about that so don't get yourself in a knot about it.
 

Kaiaua krusher_old

Guest
Fair enough Ravs.

MM you raise a good point. I love England and would love to live in the south around Penzance or further North in the Cotswolds, but only for 6 mths of the year, and then return home for a bloody good dose of Kiwi.

Somehow I think this current scenario is more shallow than that. If I'm wrong, well all credit to Fieney and his family and I would welcome him with open arms - just as I do now as a Warrior.
 

Kaiaua krusher_old

Guest
To me Ravs, Feiny only made his decision once he didn't make SOO, just as you are saying about Hunt.

I don't ever get my knickers in a twist over good debate and I will accept it was a coincidence you mentioned Hohaia in your post.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
MiXmasterreece said:
Kaiaua krusher said:
Ravs, what I am saying has got nothing to do with who deserves what ,or team selection, or anything about ethnic backgrounds.

The point is this - People have called KMH a traitor etc etc and you have seen that!!! The same people who welcome Fein into the Kiwis - you can't have it both ways.

Secondly Fein has had over 12 months in NZ to declare his allegiance and make himself available for the Anzac test and the UK Test. He didn't, because he also had a shot at SOO.

Thirdly you are making the assumption that I am filthy because Hohaia wasn't selected - get a life, it had nothing to do with that what so ever, after all its not the first time he has been dropped!!

Lastly from my perspective it is a matter of ethics and I wouldn't sell my soul to another country, just because I wasn't good enough in my own.

What if you began to sense a kinship with your new country of residence, develop a new found love for your adopted country and start to become disinfranchised with your country of birth?

Sounds like you might do what I did... move to that new country permanently. Does that make me a traitor to my country of birth? I don`t think so.
 

fiamacho_old

Guest
Does anyone get pissed off at Irene Van Dyke when she shoots 99.5% per game and helps us to a Netball World Championship?

Who was bagging Webby when he helped us win a Tri Nations?

Where was the moral outrage?
Where was the protesting in the streets?
Where were the cries of "hang him" when Webby sings our National Anthem in the Black Jersey?

I think not !!!

If Fein sscores the winning try against the Aussies or makes that last try saving tackle, damn straight we will be claiming him as our own. We will be saying thank God for Feins grandmother, and giving her the Key to the City.

The silence is defeaning?
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
fiamacho said:
Does anyone get pissed off at Irene Van Dyke when she shoots 99.5% per game and helps us to a Netball World Championship?

Who was bagging Webby when he helped us win a Tri Nations?

Where was the moral outrage?
Where was the protesting in the streets?
Where were the cries of "hang him" when Webby sings our National Anthem in the Black Jersey?

I think not !!!

If Fein sscores the winning try against the Aussies or makes that last try saving tackle, damn straight we will be claiming him as our own. We will be saying thank God for Feins grandmother, and giving her the Key to the City.

The silence is defeaning?

You`re absolutely correct, fiamacho... small minds achieve small things, and blind patriotism is a lot of B/S.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
As far as context goes, I have never labelled Karmichael Hunt a traitor. Why? Because his entire rugby league career has been in Australia, while working through the grades there, and because he was eligible to represent Australia. I know he was born in New Zealand, but know nothing of his eligibility rights through bloodline. As it stands, though, he was eligible for both Australia and New Zealand, and he chose Australia.

I feel that Australians would have greater cause to label Brent Webb, Jake Webster, Frank Pritchard, and numerous other current Kiwis traitors for spending a lot more time in Australia than Hunt spent in New Zealand, (all three mentioned there were born in Australia, and in the case of Webster, his training camp with the Kiwis was the first time he had stepped foot in this country), and their entire junior careers were in Australia.

Webb qualified through residency, (Hunt may have been the same, or possibly through family links also - I'm honestly not sure), and Fien has Kiwi blood. He, like Tony Martin, is Australian born, but has adopted the New Zealand culture. Both Fien and Martin have essentially got Kiwi kids, (children born in New Zealand who haven't been to Australia). Tony Martin is learning Te Reo, as is Fien's son.

So, in a nutshell, I don't view Fien as a traitor, just as I don't view Hunt as a traitor. If playing for a country other than the nation of your birth is treason, then here are some other Kiwis who should be labelled as traitors:
-Monty Betham (Samoa)
-Jason Cayless (born in Australia)
-Nathan Cayless (born in Australia)
-Henry Fa'afili (Samoa)
-Awen Guttenbeil (Tonga)
-Duane Mann (Tonga)
-Benji Marshall (Junior Kangaroos)
-Francis Meli (Samoa)
-Willie Poching (Samoa)
-Frank Pritchard (born in Australia)
-Jerry Seuseu (Samoa)
-Craig Smith (born in Australia)
-David Solomona (Samoa)
-Richard Swain (born in Australia)
-Anthony Swann (Samoa)
-Tony Tatupu (Samoa)
-Lesley Vainikolo (born in Tonga)
-Brent Webb (born in Australia)
-Jake Webster (born in Australia)

I'm certain that isn't an exhaustive list, and I intentionally left off players like Sean Hoppe, David Kidwell, Wairangi Koopu, Tawera Nikau, Tyran Smith, and Clinton Toopi, who have represented New Zealand Maori as I feel there isn't a strong case with players in that situation.

I also have no doubt that every single one of those 19 players listed above considers themselves a New Zealander and is proud to have worn the black and white jersey. But if Fien, having been born in Australia and wanting to represent New Zealand is a traitor, then so are all of the above. I for one don't view any of them, (Hunt and Fien included), as traitors. The Cayless brothers are a perfect example - they were born in Australia, but are fierce supporters of New Zealand. They prove that a man's nationality cannot be found in his passport or birth certificate, but in his heart.

The world is a lot smaller than it was in 1908, and people in this part of the world are much more diverse when it comes to nationalities featuring in their bloodline. We can't know for sure what Nathan Fien's motives are. The only person who knows without a doubt is Nathan Fien himself. The next most informed person is Brian McClennan. Both say Nathan is passionate to play for his adopted country, the home and birthplace of his grandmother. And I'm not willing to stand up and label them both liars.

I don't think this issue has anything to do with treachery at all. If anything, it's just a case of crying over spilt milk. People weren't complaining when Brent Webb, Jake Webster, and David Solomona, (all in the above list), took to the field against the Kangaroos in the Tri-Nations final last year. And if Fien helps us to beat them again, I don't think too many of his critics will be complaining that he shouldn't have been in the team, despite being eligible. I doubt many people would prefer to lose in order to have another equally eligible player take his place in the team.
 

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