General Head Coach thoughts

raypower_old

Guest
I've had a bit of a think (which is potentially pretty dangerous) and after watching Elliot and Bellamy, I realised that they really get a lot out of the rosters they have at their diposal. John Lang is another Coach who does the same and he's off contract because of the big coaching switcheroo.

The Warriors over the past couple of seasons becuase of money or by default have chosen un heralded coaches which has worked once to great effect but has been ordinary for the most part (Graham, Kemp)

I'm not saying that Cleary has joined the ranks of the ineffective yet, however don't you get the feeling there's so much more potential in our team that a decorated coach such as John Lang might be able to draw out of a team like the Warriors? If given a chance to sign him do you think the Warriors should do it? I know it's early days in Cleary's first grade coaching career however a lot of people on the forum have commented on his lack of risk taking and his need to test out his half back scheme for about 6 weeks longer than he should have.

I feel that a premiership coach from a decent system would work wonders on our squad, however we have our Cleary and I don't see it happening at least for a little while yet. Any other thoughts?
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
I've been saying that for ages but all i get is "u can't blame the coach"

We need a seasoned Coach that the players respect. half our team played alongside Cleary and they aren't gonna sit there and take his critisizm. People may say it worked at the dragons but no it didn't, almost every player at dragons that played alongside Nathan Brown aren't on speaking terms with him because they don't respect his input
 

da mad maori

Guest
We are paying the price because of the last bunch of clowns that ran this club. Getting rid of players, and sending them off-shore.
Its gonna take at least two seasons of re-building under Ivan before we become competitive.
AND, we are having to pay a HUGE price for not be able to play in the premier league.
We can bag the team from One Tree Hill to Eketahuna, but that is not going to help.
Right now Ivan is trying to find the right ingredients to make this team competitive. But its the players have to learn to take control more, on the paddock.
And another thing Ivan should know by now. Clinton is either starting, or he aint in the seventeen. He is not a back or forward reserve.
 

sebastian_old

Guest
I agree with ray, john langs do NOT come around very often, cleary might end up to be great but we have to think, IS it worth the risk to be able to get an preimership winning coach, with experience, tatics & known to get the most out of the crop he's got. Is it???
My test is this persisting with toops, he could ruin our build up to next season. He HAS to be dropped. For god sakes lance is gold next to toops & who's been dropped, exactly. If cleary does this my respect towards him will grow eminsly.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
How does a coach become experienced without being given a chance? The Warriors are going through a period where they're bringing in a few youngsters and with Price, Wiki, Guttenbeil, Toopi, Martin, Byrne likely to leave or retire over the next couple of years that's likely to continue. I think it's important that we have some stability in the coaches box for these youngsters coming through rather than a constant switch that is only going to hamper their development.

And just because a coach is successful with one club means nothing. Tim Sheens went from being a 3 time premiership winning coach to an over the hill hack at the Cowboys only to prove everyone wrong at the Tigers. If the club and the coach don't fit then it won't matter how good the coach is or who the players are.

There have been a few decisions that Cleary has made that have confused me a little, but he hasn't been afraid to make changes in an attempt to find that winning formula. He started with Fien at halfback and even though many disagreed he gave Fien a genuine opportunity to cement that position. I'd be more concerned if he were making wholesale changes every week.
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
how good would this look

Head Coach - John Lang
Assistant Coach - Ivan Cleary
Recruitment and Junior Developement Officer - John Ackland
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
Cleary could be a great coach or he could be the worst one yet... all I know about him is it`s way too early to tell and he deserves at least one more year to prove himself.. or not.
Would love to know what a Warriors training session is like, though, with Cleary at the helm. One thing`s for sure... they`re either not training hard enough or 80% of the players are untrainable.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
On Ivan Cleary:

Passion: Can't doubt him

Professionalism: Can't doubt him

Coaching ability: He has it, look at his work at the Chooks

Respect at the club: Can't doubt him

I may be going out on a limb here (sarcasm noted), but the continual brain explosions from the likes of Clinton Toopi would undermine any coach. Make no bones about it, coaching the Warriors at the moment is a poisoned chalice - with a bit of vintage wine fermenting. What I mean by that is, in the current mind set, it'd take a Harry Houdini to turn them around into a consistent, goal orientated, team orientated club that achieves success on the field, as far as the vintage wine thing goes, there's a sh!tload of talent, and back up infrastructure through the local competitions to make this club consistently successful, and a quality brand in terms of attracting quality players.

I'm with DMM here, its going to take a while to turn the Queen Mary around. I felt for Kemp, he really had to pick up a shoddy situation and did it well, I thought as opposed to Cleary though he was too rigid in his team selections and not forward thinking. Perhaps though, in hindsight, he was having his hand held by Mick Watson due to the pending salary cap fallout in terms of bringing in second tier players. I certainly think if John Lang isn't picked up in a full time coaching position that any NRL club with an inexperienced NRL coaching staff, with potential, could do well using Lang in the way they were seemingly utilising Peter Sterling. Picking the brains of a John Lang, or a Phil Gould as a consultant would be extremely good for Ivan and John.

At the moment, with the current carefree, laxidazical, irresponsible on field actions of several of our players (certainly not S Price, W Koopu, B Webb, R Wiki or E Tuimavave) not even God himself could have this mob running to its potential. If there was a guage to measure potential in comparison to performance, there'd be an alarming discrepancy in the measurements at the Warriors.
 

sebastian_old

Guest
toops & gatis were the only ones killing us, everyone else tryed their heart out.
 

PHANTOM MENACE_old

Guest
Nothing wrong with Cleary. we wanted changes we got them, we want wins he will get thim
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
Iafeta said:
On Ivan Cleary:

Passion: Can't doubt him

Professionalism: Can't doubt him

Coaching ability: He has it, look at his work at the Chooks

Respect at the club: Can't doubt him

.

I know what your saying iafeta but what he did at the Roosters Premier league wasn't a one man band. Phil Gould (can't stand him but is one of the best coaches in history) oversaw everything that Ivan did. Ivan bounced every decision off Goulds head. Not to mention the fact that the Roosters Premier league players were the highest paid reserve grade team in the world as there was no cap for them, one 16 year old in Ivans team was on over $100,000 a year. In other words he had the best pool of talent (that money could buy) in NSW. Hardley Comparible to a First Grade Coaching role where there are no "gimme's"
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
PHANTOM MENACE said:
Nothing wrong with Cleary. we wanted changes we got them, we want wins he will get thim

um....10 weeks? 10 weeks it took him to make a few simple changes that most of the people were screaming for in round 2? Not good enough IMO. That bird doesn't sing for me. The fact is, 99% of people knew that Sione at stand off was never gonna work. and it didn't. Rovelli, a specialist halfback, as an interchange hooker, right...good call Cleary. too many dumb desicions. it's the 1990's all over again.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
2black. Look at the squad this year

Fullback: Webb
Wingers: Vatuvei, Byrne, Martin, Ah Van, Taulapapa
Centres: Ropati, Martin, Toopi, Mannering
Five Eighth: Faumuina, Rovelli, Ropati
Halfback: Fien, Rovelli
Prop: Price, Wiki, Tuimavave
Hooker: Hohaia, Rovelli, Gatis, Fien
Backrow: Koopu, Anderson, Guttenbeil, Luck, Faumuina, Lauaki

That suggests to me Ivan Cleary has been MORE than proactive in making changes. To suggest he's taken 10 rounds to do anything is unreal. He's trialled 5 different halves in the two positions, five different wingers, four centres, four hookers - all the key positions. Last year, you'd be lucky to have had two changes by this time of the season under Tony Kemp.

The key now is settling on a combination - and in Cleary's defence, aside from Fien at hooker, none of those positions are completely set in concrete yet. The players' haven't always taken advantage of the opportunities Cleary's granted them - so he's tried different combinations. As opposed to your view that he hasn't tried to make changes.

The Warriors have a number of utilities trying to play specialist positions, and then a bunch of outlandish irresponsible footballers outside of that. I feel sorry for the bloke - I feel sorry for Price, I feel sorry for Webb, I feel sorry for Wiki, I feel sorry for Tuimavave, I feel sorry for Koopu - those blokes week in week out don't give away dumb penalties, or dumb dropped balls. The thing is though, at other clubs there's 17 blokes week in week out the same could be said of. Thats the difference. Bring in J. Christ, and IMO, he's still going to struggle, despite people's opinion of Ivan, I doubt one of his recommendations with 5 to go, on the 4th tackle 45m out from their line behind by 4 is to chase a player downfield to try and start a fight and give away a penalty. I doubt his instructions to C Toopi against the Bulldogs with 2 minutes to go was to throw a hail mary offload that the Dogs couldn't help but collect and dot down off. I doubt his instructions to C Toopi last night was to over-read defensively badly and create two opportunities for two tries inside 5 minutes. I doubt his instructions to Taulapapa last night was to drop the ball with the line begging. I doubt his instructions to Manu Vatuvei last night were to drop everything along the ground that came his way. I doubt his instruction to Michael Luck was to give away a cheap penalty, and for Tony Martin to follow it up one ruck later with another one to put the Dragons in prime territory to score a try. I doubt against the Raiders Ivan gave Todd Byrne directions to running slowly or not use the angle of running to the corner as his friend. I doubt against Melbourne one of his instructions to Tony Martin was to tackle Greg Inglis one on one around the upper chest while he's trying to fend him off, and then from there on give him a lot of room to use outside him. At crucial stages, at crucial times, certain players have made dumb, dumb decisions, I don't care whether Gould is here, or Bennett, or Ricky Stuart, its going to cost you games. Which it has.

All a coach can do is give some motivation, some direction - careless mistakes like that are not his domain to be quite frank. Its about time some players took a damn good long hard look at themselves in the mirror, come to their senses, apologise to him, the team-mates who do bust their chops week in week out, and the fans. Once the players take some onus, some responsibility from a good hard honest look at themselves and the same mistakes they've been making since 2004 and you'll start to see good football again.
 

raypower_old

Guest
Iafet - You've named some prime examples of individual brilliance through out the season which I agree can not be controlled by the coach during game time but surely this lack of discipline isn't going to be corrected right now by the warriors stopping to think "gees...we've really been ordinary so far, sorry guys coach and fan"

My examples earlier of coaches who manage to get far more out of their rosters than ordinary talent dictates like Elliot and Lang seem to have bred a culture of doing it for your team mate. The same sort of culture can be seen in the Cowboys right now as well. I know a lot of it comes from winning but right now we have players trying then we have the over tryers and players that are too selfish. Surely the person responsible for sorting this out is the coach. The onus to some degree lies with the players but the coach is the ring leader here, are you happy so far with Cleary's motivation and his direction so far? Do you think the team is disciplined enough?

I'm not saying get rid of the guy but started this thread to see if anyone thought that an experienced coach would make a difference.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
rayroxon said:
Iafet - You've named some prime examples of individual brilliance through out the season which I agree can not be controlled by the coach during game time but surely this lack of discipline isn't going to be corrected right now by the warriors stopping to think "gees...we've really been ordinary so far, sorry guys coach and fan"

My examples earlier of coaches who manage to get far more out of their rosters than ordinary talent dictates like Elliot and Lang seem to have bred a culture of doing it for your team mate. The same sort of culture can be seen in the Cowboys right now as well. I know a lot of it comes from winning but right now we have players trying then we have the over tryers and players that are too selfish. Surely the person responsible for sorting this out is the coach. The onus to some degree lies with the players but the coach is the ring leader here, are you happy so far with Cleary's motivation and his direction so far? Do you think the team is disciplined enough?

I'm not saying get rid of the guy but started this thread to see if anyone thought that an experienced coach would make a difference.

Agree entirely.

But the onus comes on the players to admit they have problems. If they can't see the forest for the trees, regardless of who's coaching them, there can't be any change. Its like Gamblers Anonymous, the wife can not be happy, the wife can leave, you can lose your house, you can lose your job - but basically, at the end of the day, your attitude isn't going to change until you come to the realisation individually that there is a problem that needs correcting.
 

mosh_old

Guest
I think, if the Warriors agree that Ivan Cleary needs to be given the boot at the end of the year, or just before, then I hope we stop the trend of trying to get an aussie coach here and try to actually get a coach who has coached Batercard Cup, or been there long enough to know every player playing in the domestic competition. The Australian coach for me isnt working. Just too many clashes for me. There had been some real dud "local" coaches tried in the past, but lets not use them as a scapegoat to never try one in the future again.

Fair enough Ivan Cleary has been given an unfair start to 2006 with the -4 start. But that does not affect the teams performance 10 rounds out, and we should be over that by now. And we do not start each game at -20, so it should never be used as an excuse.

And fair enough that Cleary has lost alot of players like Jones, Paleeasina. But he has not tried to replace them with players from Batercard (Tuakura, Karena, Fai, Rapira). When you live by the sword expect criticisms.
 

raypower_old

Guest
Iafeta said:
rayroxon said:
Iafet - You've named some prime examples of individual brilliance through out the season which I agree can not be controlled by the coach during game time but surely this lack of discipline isn't going to be corrected right now by the warriors stopping to think "gees...we've really been ordinary so far, sorry guys coach and fan"

My examples earlier of coaches who manage to get far more out of their rosters than ordinary talent dictates like Elliot and Lang seem to have bred a culture of doing it for your team mate. The same sort of culture can be seen in the Cowboys right now as well. I know a lot of it comes from winning but right now we have players trying then we have the over tryers and players that are too selfish. Surely the person responsible for sorting this out is the coach. The onus to some degree lies with the players but the coach is the ring leader here, are you happy so far with Cleary's motivation and his direction so far? Do you think the team is disciplined enough?

I'm not saying get rid of the guy but started this thread to see if anyone thought that an experienced coach would make a difference.

Agree entirely.

But the onus comes on the players to admit they have problems. If they can't see the forest for the trees, regardless of who's coaching them, there can't be any change. Its like Gamblers Anonymous, the wife can not be happy, the wife can leave, you can lose your house, you can lose your job - but basically, at the end of the day, your attitude isn't going to change until you come to the realisation individually that there is a problem that needs correcting.

Ok - so how do you remedy this malaise then? Ali was made out to not care about the bigger picture. Do you start getting rid of "deadwood" and is that the front offices job or do we hold our breath and wait for the players to have that epiphany. I just think that as much as it is a players responsibility a coach needs to plant the seed and get them realising that their attitudes may be out of line. We're seeing gifted footballers trying to be heroes and getting frustrated that their efforts aren't paying off and that the public doesn't appreciate it.

Anyways I think we could have this argument forever and a day. It's kind of like a chicken and the egg argument don't you think? :)
 

da mad maori

Guest
You know what Ivans problem is.???

It is because he was assisstant coach of this team before he took full reign.

Kemp..assistant coach prior...failed
Cleary assistant coach prior...failing.

I said it before and I'll say it again, if the babies gonna throw his toys out of the cot, make sure he throws the lot out !!!
 

ozbash_old

Guest
"""We are paying the price because of the last bunch of clowns that ran this club. Getting rid of players, and sending them off-shore.
Its gonna take at least two seasons of re-building under Ivan before we become competitive.""" DMM.


DMM is 100% correct and you cant blame ivan for that.

ivans alright.
 

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