General grand final day

Northern_Union

Guest
He seems to be able to motivate his troops which is something Ivan seems to struggle with.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
That's what makes him a good coach, he instills that strong work ethic, puts the responsbilitity on the players to work hard and put in extra work after training and with that they get the results that they deserve. DA expects a lot from his players. As for Ivan hes too laid back and doesnt care.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
That's what makes him a good coach, he instills that strong work ethic, puts the responsbilitity on the players to work hard and put in extra work after training and with that they get the results that they deserve. DA expects a lot from his players. As for Ivan hes too laid back and doesnt care.

I feel the same way Gary but you try telling some of the guys and girls that on this forum and all hell breaks loose.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Yeah i know. Clearly DA is a far better coach than Ivan is, in all departments. Especially tactically. DA admits at the time when he was at the Warriors he made some bad mistakes inregards to his communication with some players, although at the same time the players were far too sensitive and needed to be more thick skin. He's learnt from that. DA was only 35 years old at the time, cut him some slack, 35 and coached this unsuccessful club to their first GF. He would do wonders with some of the players we have right now, especially the young guys in our squad, he would ensure they will go on and develope to have great futures in rugby league.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Yeah i know. Clearly DA is a far better coach than Ivan is, in all departments. Especially tactically. DA admits at the time when he was at the Warriors he made some bad mistakes inregards to his communication with some players, although at the same time the players were far too sensitive and needed to be more thick skin. He's learnt from that. DA was only 35 years old at the time, cut him some slack, 35 and coached this unsuccessful club to their first GF. He would do wonders with some of the players we have right now, especially the young guys in our squad, he would ensure they will go on and develope to have great futures in rugby league.

For the sake of debate, Cleary was only two years older when he took us one match shorter than DA. He has also found himself on the same learning curve as DA with a poor season following a strong season. The similarities are striking, so, like you say, let's cut him some slack. ;)

As far as how tactical or laidback each coach is, it's hard to say. Cleary does project a less stand-offish and more laidback personality. Of course, that doesn't mean that he doesn't care, lol. As for tactics, though, who knows - just look at how the coaching staff at the Storm differ in their approach. Every team (and coaching set up) has its own approach to how it should be done. I've not had insight into either of the Anderson or Cleary tenures at the Warriors to know what's different.

It's interesting, though, that to defend Cleary is seen to attack Anderson, and vice versa. Personally, I rate them both. The only real difference result-wise is that the one who got us 1 match closer to a Premiership also set us up to get 3 losses closer to a wooden spoon, and he was rumoured to have a player revolt on his hands - something, as you say, he has learnt from.
 

dicky knee_old

Guest
For the sake of debate, Cleary was only two years older when he took us one match shorter than DA. He has also found himself on the same learning curve as DA with a poor season following a strong season. The similarities are striking, so, like you say, let's cut him some slack. ;)

As far as how tactical or laidback each coach is, it's hard to say. Cleary does project a less stand-offish and more laidback personality. Of course, that doesn't mean that he doesn't care, lol. As for tactics, though, who knows - just look at how the coaching staff at the Storm differ in their approach. Every team (and coaching set up) has its own approach to how it should be done. I've not had insight into either of the Anderson or Cleary tenures at the Warriors to know what's different.

It's interesting, though, that to defend Cleary is seen to attack Anderson, and vice versa. Personally, I rate them both. The only real difference result-wise is that the one who got us 1 match closer to a Premiership also set us up to get 3 losses closer to a wooden spoon, and he was rumoured to have a player revolt on his hands - something, as you say, he has learnt from.

C'mon mate, Cleary couldn't hold a candle to Anderson. You seem to be his personal protector.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
C'mon mate, Cleary couldn't hold a candle to Anderson. You seem to be his personal protector.

Can you expand? Based on results, the two coaches, (Cleary 2006-2009, Anderson 2001-2004), are incredibly similar.

Cleary doesn't need protection - I'm only trying to get through the veneer of "balance" which is being so blatantly ignored. The two men are very different as far as personalities go, but results on the field are very similar.

So why the vitriol towards Cleary? At least 2009 wasn't 2004.

I guess one crucial question that I've not seen asked is whether Warriors fans were saying these things this time last year, when we finished 3rd? And if not, why not?
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Haha personal protector, i like that.

DA has it over Ivan all day tactically. DA revolutionised the way the Warriors played the game, we were nothing untill he came along. DA managed to get the Eels to the GF, where did Ivan get us this year, forget what happen in 2008, this season is what im talking about. Ivan has been far too conservative and defensive. DA got rid of Brent Finch a 250+ rep halfback, that took some balls, he saw that having him in the team wasnt moving the team in the right direction for the future, whereas Ivan bought back Stacey Jones another 200 game vetran/test player, and look what happen. Sometimes being a good league player doesnt amount to being a good coach, take Terry Lamb, and Brad Fitler for example, legends on the field, but can't coach top level nrl.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Haha personal protector, i like that.

DA has it over Ivan all day tactically. DA revolutionised the way the Warriors played the game, we were nothing untill he came along. DA managed to get the Eels to the GF, where did Ivan get us this year, forget what happen in 2008, this season is what im talking about. Ivan has been far too conservative and defensive. DA got rid of Brent Finch a 250+ rep halfback, that took some balls, he saw that having him in the team wasnt moving the team in the right direction for the future, whereas Ivan bought back Stacey Jones another 200 game vetran/test player, and look what happen. Sometimes being a good league player doesnt amount to being a good coach, take Terry Lamb, and Brad Fitler for example, legends on the field, but can't coach top level nrl.

Ah...see, I thought this was harking back to the debate of whether Daniel Anderson should have stayed at the Warriors, and whether Cleary should go, etc. Comparing Cleary to Anderson in this given moment is a moot point. If it's just a straight up "who is better right now out of Anderson and Cleary", then it's a pretty short debate!
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
It is a moot point on whos better now. Obviously DA his first season back coaching in the nrl after 4 or 5 years out has coached his team to the GF. That was a massive effort, incredible. Even taking into account Ivan's previous success I still think DA is a far better coach, he just has that coaching ability where he can formulate smart game plans, and develope young players aswell make something out of journeymen players. He gets the best out of his players.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Ah...see, I thought this was harking back to the debate of whether Daniel Anderson should have stayed at the Warriors, and whether Cleary should go, etc. Comparing Cleary to Anderson in this given moment is a moot point. If it's just a straight up "who is better right now out of Anderson and Cleary", then it's a pretty short debate!

It's a short debate either way. Ivan Cleary has nothing over Daniel Anderson. Daniel Anderson coached the Warriors to 3 consecutive final series in a row, and made the GF one year and the next he came 3rd. 2004 he left due to player power. Then he went to the uksl and was successful there making GF's and winning GFs. The Warriors actually performed and played good football in the final series too while DA was incharge, i can only think of 2 games where the Warriors have actually aimed up in finals under Ivan Cleary. Attacking style of play is the way to go to be successful in the nrl right now, Ivan just doesnt suit that, hes got a conservative boring predictable approach and style, Daniel Anderson is a far better coach ill have him back at the Warriors anyway day. No way the Warriors can ever win a GF under Ivan Cleary ever.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
There are other circumstances to take into account. It's not as though both coaches came in with the same player roster and a clean slate to work with. DA inherited a team that was finally starting to hit it's straps, Jones was peaking, as was Ali, Toopi, SeuSeu...to name a few.

Ivan on the other hand inherits a disaster zone post Anderson/Kemp and to be fair, does a pretty damn good job rebuilding. Gary you say DA led the Warriors to 3 consecutive finals series, well wouldn't Ivan have done the exact same thing barring the 4 point salary cap penalty?

And this is such a ridiculous comparison to be making. You can't compare in hindsight, we all have 20/20 vision in hindsight ffs. If someone had made a huge fuss about it when we let him go in '04 then sure, kudos to you for having incredible foresight, but that was BEFORE he made these ESL GF's and BEFORE this year. In fact, noone was comparing them when the Eels were running last!

Gary you also say Ivan has coached a boring and predictable style of play, I was just wondering what was boring and predictable about '07 and '08? In fact in '07 we scored more tries from our own half than any other club...
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Look Ivan seems like a nice lovable guy, who doesnt step out of line. But honestly he doesnt have what it takes to coach a team to a premiership, its as simple as that. DA inherited a good team of players - Ivan Cleary himself, Jones, Ali, Meli, and Toopi to name a few, but at the same time he did a lot of work to get other no name players and journeymen players a name for themselves as good players in the nrl. And those young guys like Meli, Henry, Toopi to get them playing the best to their ability and play a winning style which suits them, would not be easy. He put a lot of time and effort in those kids, and it showed, there are a lot of players with natural potential but its another thing developing it and becoming stars of the nrl. No i disageee with you there, it takes more than good players to reach the heights we did back then, you need a good smart coach, having good players does not always equal success sometimes.

Im sick of people bringing up that 4 point deduction thing up. The Warriors knew they were 4 points behind the pack before a ball was kicked off that year, so obviously you aim to make the play offs taking into account your 4 points behind not on an even par with the rest of the teams, also you have a different mentality when you reach that stage come the final rounds where the Warriors knew they werent going to make the 8 mathmatically, so that influences the way you play. It's all irrelevant that, at the end of the day we didnt make the 8 that season, thats all that counts.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Im not having a shot at you Toilet Duck, but for people to say that the Warriors should have made the 8 back in that year is ridiculous. Look at the Bulldogs, they were deducted 4 points this year, and they still managed to make the top 8 and even they missed out on the minor premiership, they just lost it due to point differential aswell. If the Warriors were good enough to make the 8 they would have.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
Well...the Dogs were deducted 2 points.

And it does make a difference, especially when the mess you've been handed wasn't of your own creating. This competition is incredibly level, there's often only 2-4 points separating teams outside the 8 and teams in the top 4.

If we break it down into wins and losses that year, how did the Warriors deserve to be in the top 8 less than the side with a worse win:loss record and a worse points differential?

Anyway, even if we take that season out of the equation, the point I was making was DA led Warriors to 3 finals series, Ivan to 2 then.

By the way, that was one tiny point you picked up on. How about explaining what you found boring and predictable in '07 and '08?
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
And those young guys like Meli, Henry, Toopi to get them playing the best to their ability and play a winning style which suits them, would not be easy. He put a lot of time and effort in those kids, and it showed, there are a lot of players with natural potential but its another thing developing it and becoming stars of the nrl.

Come on, let's give credit where it's due. Sure DA did a good job with those guys, but as long as we're comparing the two, Ivan has done a pretty damn good job with the likes of Rapira, Mannering, Manu, Jerome (up until this season). I agree that there are many players with natural potential but getting the best out of them is a hard thing to do...and I think Ivan has done a great job with the guys he's brought through.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Yeah your right, he has done a good job with those guys who you mention, but hes just not doing the job now, those guys who are now established international stars had a bad season besides Manu, and the other young guys who he should be focusing on now are sliding away - thats Russel Packer, Joel Moon, Ben Matulino, Kevin Locke. He also let some good talent go too, and yes we can't keep them all and evey team or coaches loses good young talent but the thing is Ivan replaced them with duds.

Anyway inregards to your question about the 07 and 08 seasons personally i found those seasons boring, but thats just my opinion, you asked for it. Statistics may tell a different story, but not at any stage of those seasons i felt like this team could go all the way. Or thought they were premiership winning material. They never looked like a threat. The latter rounds of 2008 was pretty good though, some new guys were introduced they put consecutive wins together and looked good.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
Anyway inregards to your question about the 07 and 08 seasons personally i found those seasons boring, but thats just my opinion, you asked for it. Statistics may tell a different story, but not at any stage of those seasons i felt like this team could go all the way. Or thought they were premiership winning material. They never looked like a threat. The latter rounds of 2008 was pretty good though, some new guys were introduced they put consecutive wins together and looked good.

Really? Boring? Even with the late pushes to the finals and the long range tries? We mightn't have been out-and-out premiership material but it was pretty good stuff both years..

Ah well, like you said, that's your opinion.
 

garyhobson_old

Guest
Really? Boring? Even with the late pushes to the finals and the long range tries? We mightn't have been out-and-out premiership material but it was pretty good stuff both years..

Ah well, like you said, that's your opinion.

Late pushes to finals, that was nothing. Tigers 05, Eels 09, thats what i call late pushes to finals. Where you feel threaten and think yeah they could be the real deal here and hard to stop and could actually go all the way. The seage mentality. Never felt that about the Warriors in those years. But anyway 2010 is a new year and Ivan will be under the pump which is a good thing, hopefully we will see something special.
 

Spence_old

Guest
Yeah your right, he has done a good job with those guys who you mention, but hes just not doing the job now, those guys who are now established international stars had a bad season besides Manu, and the other young guys who he should be focusing on now are sliding away - thats Russel Packer, Joel Moon, Ben Matulino, Kevin Locke. He also let some good talent go too, and yes we can't keep them all and evey team or coaches loses good young talent but the thing is Ivan replaced them with duds.

Anyway inregards to your question about the 07 and 08 seasons personally i found those seasons boring, but thats just my opinion, you asked for it. Statistics may tell a different story, but not at any stage of those seasons i felt like this team could go all the way. Or thought they were premiership winning material. They never looked like a threat. The latter rounds of 2008 was pretty good though, some new guys were introduced they put consecutive wins together and looked good.

It's easy to say we aren't keeping our juniors, but if you really think about it - we/Ivan has done a pretty awesome job. There are about 3-4 second rowers that could develope into first graders in this years NYC team, plus last year there was O'Regan, Matulino, Scott Jones and Steve Rapira, etc. So out of Louisi, Afioga, Taylor, Ben Henry, Gavet, Kara, Matulino, O'regan, Steve Rapira, etc, do you really expect them all to stay? Why would they, when we already have a full backrow in the top grade. Not only would it be very hard to keep them due to salary caps, etc, what would the point of having them all be? It's not like we are going to debut 7 different second rowers in one season.