General Brian McClennan stands down as head coach of Leeds Rhinos

Iafeta_old

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Equally those that say Ivan can win us a premiership haven't made an argument for him either. The problem is how do you imperically quantify it? The only imperical proof that can be brought in is that he hasn't lead a team to an NRL title as a coach yet.
Jesbass, your associations that those that say Cleary can't win a title do so because if they repeat it offen enough it becomes true could also be true of those that say he can.
At the end of the day the whole argument is conjecture and people can only go by past results and what they percieve as correct in there own minds.

I agree. 100% conjecture on both sides. But the absolute self validity made on the 'Cleary can't win a premiership' side of the lecture is amazing.

IMO, a few things give you a massive leg up in the premiership, from what I've seen in the past 10 years.

-Luck with injuries
-Your coaches name is Wayne Bennett
-You systematically rort the salary cap
-Luck with refereeing decisions
-One or two key players catch on fire late in the season
-The spine of the team is at least very good if not outstanding

I think you have to be consistent to stand that chance of catching fire at the end of the year. I think Ivan Cleary provides that.

The second point is one that interests me. The only coach I would absolutely gag for if he came available is Bennett. He's a proven culture-builder. He sustains success. No other coach in the post-Gibson era rivals Bennett. Some have had periodic or intermittent success like Sheens or Stuart, but even they have woeful periods. Bennett consistently achieves. To me, if you sign Wayne Bennett you have enormous confidence that in his tenure he'll get his teams to the finals, and that he knows what to do next. To me, he is the only coach that you can tick and flick and say he is a guaranteed premiership winner. No one else comes close in my book, so therefore, unless they understand our culture and our innate way of doing things, I'm not overtly interested.

I hear comments that Ivan isn't adventurous enough. IMO, Wayne Bennett coached sides are methodical and disciplined, and follow a simple, rigid structure with one or two gamebreakers to execute key plays. The most adventurous coach IMO in the comp is Daniel Anderson, and he's been sacked. I don't think any of Wayne's stuff on field is ground breaking stuff. I think Wayne is just a past master of psychological preparation and being half a step ahead of the rest in what the game is trending. And he has enormous respect for it. My heart bleeds Warriors through and through, but if I were a player, in the back of my mind despite my enormous love for this club I would have this erring to go to a Bennett coached club because I think as a human being you'd learn a lot from his leadership. That's the mantra of the man.

That's some of my reasoning behind my comments. Much like Jesbass, I don't have a great deal of confidence either way to say my opinion is assertively correct. But unless the guy he's being compared to is W Bennett, frankly, IMO the guy deserves every opportunity. And beyond that, if he somehow fails from here, John Ackland or Tony Iro deserve their chance. I'd hate to think from a Warriors fans perspective that we underestimate the talents of those two operators. They add a lot of substance to this club.
 
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2big2strong_old

Guest
I've only ever seen it presented as an assertion - not an argument - and it seems that those presenting it seem to think that it's so obvious that an argument isn't necessary, or that if they repeat it enough, it'll become true.


Just like Christianity/any religion?

No offence intended but as a God fearing man don't you base your entire lifestyle around this exact formula?

I don't want to get drawn back into this old argument but I have posted many small essay's giving various reasons why I believe Ivan Cleary doesn't have what it takes to win a premiership. The main reason being that there is a pattern going back 100 years of premiership winning coaches being very clinical, aggressive creatures. These are your Bennett's, Haslers, Bellamy's, Gould's, Ryans even Stuarts. I'm not a Cleary hater and I very much hope that this trend is bucked in 2011, I just think he's far too willing to settle for 2nd best/mediocrity, which in my opinion doesn't win premierships. W.N.T?

Still, I really wouldn't be fussed anymore if Cleary stayed or went. I really like him as a person.

TBH I'm more interested in what silverware the Kiwi's win than the warriors so as long as the Warriors keep pumping through that homegrown talent I'm happy.
 

Swanley_old

Guest
TBH I'm more interested in what silverware the Kiwi's win than the warriors so as long as the Warriors keep pumping through that homegrown talent I'm happy.[/QUOTE said:
Agree 100%.
 

Ryan_old

Guest
In my eyes, Cleary is the closest thing going, style-wise, to Bennett (sans the 64% win record, and 6 premierships). Don't forget that, at Cleary's age (39?), Bennett had only been coaching in the NRL for a couple of seasons at that point in his career. I think that Cleary is going to be next biggest thing in coaching after Bennett. I dearly hope we hold on to him. BTW, I don't count Bellamy, because of the illegality of his side.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Just like Christianity/any religion?

No offence intended but as a God fearing man don't you base your entire lifestyle around this exact formula?

No offense taken at all, probably because that's not what I base my worldview on at all. That'd be a quicksand perspective and I'd much rather not sink.

I would hope that you know me better than to think I'd form an opinion on something based purely on conjecture - much less base my worldview on such.

I don't want to get drawn back into this old argument but I have posted many small essay's giving various reasons why I believe Ivan Cleary doesn't have what it takes to win a premiership. The main reason being that there is a pattern going back 100 years of premiership winning coaches being very clinical, aggressive creatures. These are your Bennett's, Haslers, Bellamy's, Gould's, Ryans even Stuarts. I'm not a Cleary hater and I very much hope that this trend is bucked in 2011, I just think he's far too willing to settle for 2nd best/mediocrity, which in my opinion doesn't win premierships. W.N.T?

Still, I really wouldn't be fussed anymore if Cleary stayed or went. I really like him as a person.

Incidentally, you're not who I had in mind when I made my post. There are, I accept, people on both sides of the debate who actually form arguments. I was more talking about the folk on various forums whose entire post amounts to: "The Warriors won't win a Premiership with Ivan Cleary." (Which is, of course, an assertion, and not an argument.)

TBH I'm more interested in what silverware the Kiwi's win than the warriors so as long as the Warriors keep pumping through that homegrown talent I'm happy.

Agreed. Country before club for me. I bleed black and silver from my veins, but I bleed black and white from my arteries.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
In my eyes, Cleary is the closest thing going, style-wise, to Bennett (sans the 64% win record, and 6 premierships). Don't forget that, at Cleary's age (39?), Bennett had only been coaching in the NRL for a couple of seasons at that point in his career. I think that Cleary is going to be next biggest thing in coaching after Bennett. I dearly hope we hold on to him. BTW, I don't count Bellamy, because of the illegality of his side.

Big call. He certainly displays a similar personality on tv! :lol1:
 

Ryan_old

Guest
Big call. He certainly displays a similar personality on tv! :lol1:
It's not really a call, at all. I have next to no data to reason with, so I couldn't back an argument for my view. It's just a gut feeling I have.
 

Spence_old

Guest
In the past I've been critical of Ivans ability to "amp" the team up, but I think some of the defensive efforts we've put in this year, added with the amount of comradery shown within the team proves that he is developing some kind of ability to inspire a team. Obviously it helps with Rubes around, but surely Ivan has something to do with this.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
I don't want to get drawn back into this old argument but I have posted many small essay's giving various reasons why I believe Ivan Cleary doesn't have what it takes to win a premiership. The main reason being that there is a pattern going back 100 years of premiership winning coaches being very clinical, aggressive creatures. These are your Bennett's, Haslers, Bellamy's, Gould's, Ryans even Stuarts. I'm not a Cleary hater and I very much hope that this trend is bucked in 2011, I just think he's far too willing to settle for 2nd best/mediocrity, which in my opinion doesn't win premierships. W.N.T?

Still, I really wouldn't be fussed anymore if Cleary stayed or went. I really like him as a person.

TBH I'm more interested in what silverware the Kiwi's win than the warriors so as long as the Warriors keep pumping through that homegrown talent I'm happy.

This pretty much sums it up for me as well. I've been giving my opinion for 2 or so years now and haven't seen anything to change it. Having said that I can understand that other people have varying opinions and can see why they'd see it the other way.

Personally I believe that unless Cleary has a change of mentality in how we approach games then we're very unlikely to win a premiership under him with the team we currently have.
 

ToiletDuck_old

Guest
It's a little unfair to say Cleary settles for second best. Second best is basically all we can attract, or have been able to attract over the past few seasons. 2001-2003 saw us do well with a squad where key players were home-grown. Guys like Jones, Ali, Awen, Seuseu etc added with a few good 'steady' buys in Carlaw, Campion etc.

Ivan came in, and I think he's shown us all that he's scoured the earth for players willing to come over. His initial fascination with Rooster reserve graders was a little concerning at first, but he's in no way afraid to wield the axe or try new options.

Hence I think labelling him as someone who settles for mediocre unfair. The club currently has (as do many of you) a culture of 'in the 8 is good enough' - and that shit starts at the top.

I also don't think he has any problem coaching attacking football, though he has had a massive shortage of players in that mould. I also believe while he isn't some Daniel Anderson maverick who will take you to a GF in a year, he has some vision and believes in squad depth - which has been more and more apparent over his years in charge.

Oh, and let's not forget his shift from our ball-tossing, harlem globe trotting style to a much more defensive approach. We can all jizz on about attacking football winning premierships but Wayne Bennett certainly believes in D first - even during his time at the Broncos with his attacking stars - the D in their premiership teams was always miserly.
 

KeepingTheFaith_old

Guest
The defensive approach wouldn't bother me if there was more aggressive intent behind it. Bennet''s teams were always defensive, but they won their games on the back of dominated up front and grinding teams down.

We seem more happy to use our defense to limit the opposition and arm wrestle, hoping they make a mistake as opposed to going out and forcing it.
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
It's a little unfair to say Cleary settles for second best. Second best is basically all we can attract, or have been able to attract over the past few seasons. 2001-2003 saw us do well with a squad where key players were home-grown. Guys like Jones, Ali, Awen, Seuseu etc added with a few good 'steady' buys in Carlaw, Campion etc.

Ivan came in, and I think he's shown us all that he's scoured the earth for players willing to come over. His initial fascination with Rooster reserve graders was a little concerning at first, but he's in no way afraid to wield the axe or try new options.

Hence I think labelling him as someone who settles for mediocre unfair. The club currently has (as do many of you) a culture of 'in the 8 is good enough' - and that shit starts at the top.

I also don't think he has any problem coaching attacking football, though he has had a massive shortage of players in that mould. I also believe while he isn't some Daniel Anderson maverick who will take you to a GF in a year, he has some vision and believes in squad depth - which has been more and more apparent over his years in charge.

Oh, and let's not forget his shift from our ball-tossing, harlem globe trotting style to a much more defensive approach. We can all jizz on about attacking football winning premierships but Wayne Bennett certainly believes in D first - even during his time at the Broncos with his attacking stars - the D in their premiership teams was always miserly.

You've got what I said mixed up.

When I said he settles for second best/mediocrity it had nothing to do with player quality. I rate our retainment/recruiment as the best it could possibly be given the clubs circumstances (not being able to attract marquee players to NZ). When I say he settles for mediocrity and second best I mean that after a loss, and sometimes that loss could be by 20 points, he regularly says things like "We gave it our best" or "I'm really happy with they guys efforts out there today" or even "the other team were amazing, there was no way we could have won".

What is that shit?

That my friend is settling for mediocrity and you never ever hear any of the top coaches talking shit like that. I've seen both Bennett and Bellamy tear the paint off the walls even after a win because their team wasn't playing up to their capability. It just sets a bad standard and LOWERS the bar of expectation.

I definitely agree with everything you said about the defensive aspects. I think Cleary took our side to an all time high in the defense department this year, after some 40 point hidings, which gives me the most hope that he is evolving as a coach and that we have a chance in 2011.
 
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Ryan_old

Guest
That my friend is settling for mediocrity and you never ever hear any of the top coaches talking shit like that. I've seen both Bennett and Bellamy tear the paint off the walls even after a win because their team wasn't playing up to their capability. It just sets a bad standard and LOWERS the bar of expectation.
Do you mean "tearing paint off the walls" in the dressing room, to the media, or both?

In any case, I couldn't give a rats arse what Cleary tells the media, because I'd be willing to bet an arm (and a leg) he's not saying that kind of "optimistic" crap in the dressing room, or in training. Cleary is not an excitable fellow, and I think that suits our team culture (with a substantial Polynesian presence) very well. I, personally, have a massive distaste for excitable coaches (every time I see Hasler or Bellamy going off in the coaches box, it makes me cringe), so that makes me more biased towards Cleary's style, but don't get me wrong here, as I certainly rate winning over coaching style.
 

Ryan_old

Guest
I reiterate, to make my point a bit clearer, I don't think it's reasonable for you to assume that Cleary is settling for mediocrity based on his press. We simply do not know what is explicitly being communicated between the coaching staff and players, and therefore cannot assume is the same as what is expressed to the media.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
Do you mean "tearing paint off the walls" in the dressing room, to the media, or both?

In any case, I couldn't give a rats arse what Cleary tells the media, because I'd be willing to bet an arm (and a leg) he's not saying that kind of "optimistic" crap in the dressing room, or in training. Cleary is not an excitable fellow, and I think that suits our team culture (with a substantial Polynesian presence) very well. I, personally, have a massive distaste for excitable coaches (every time I see Hasler or Bellamy going off in the coaches box, it makes me cringe), so that makes me more biased towards Cleary's style, but don't get me wrong here, as I certainly rate winning over coaching style.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but i'm making the arrangements for the double amputation now. Ivan is one layed back dude and it tends to be Tony that lays down the law at training.
 

Ryan_old

Guest
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but i'm making the arrangements for the double amputation now. Ivan is one layed back dude and it tends to be Tony that lays down the law at training.
I'd be willing to believe you if you could prove you have knowledge on the communication between staff and players. And, it appears as if you've missed the point, a bit. I'm not talking about who lays down the "law". And I totally agree that Ivan is looks like a "layed back dude", but this does not mean that what he is saying is "layed back", and unless you can prove otherwise, I get to keep my arm and leg.
 

Ryan_old

Guest
And, by the way, "layed back" is probably not the most appropriate term for the Ivan we know through the press. "layed back" sounds like something one does with a bong. Stoical is probably better.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
And, by the way, "layed back" is probably not the most appropriate term for the Ivan we know through the press. "layed back" sounds like something one does with a bong. Stoical is probably better.

lol that made me laugh. :D
 

Northern_Union

Guest
I'd be willing to believe you if you could prove you have knowledge on the communication between staff and players. And, it appears as if you've missed the point, a bit. I'm not talking about who lays down the "law". And I totally agree that Ivan is looks like a "layed back dude", but this does not mean that what he is saying is "layed back", and unless you can prove otherwise, I get to keep my arm and leg.

If Jesbass was to vouch for my insider knowledge at the Warriors would that be good enough for you? Without giving to much away i have a relative that attends every practise and all home games and been with the club twice in it's history.
The only person i've disclosed details to is Jesbass.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
If Jesbass was to vouch for my insider knowledge at the Warriors would that be good enough for you? Without giving to much away i have a relative that attends every practise and all home games and been with the club twice in it's history.
The only person i've disclosed details to is Jesbass.

It should be noted that his relative is Adam Blair.
 

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