Internationals Anzac Test

jahc_old

Guest
I think they may have swapped Roberts and Inu around to inject Inu into the attack... but if thats the case, how arrogant is that putting just anybody at fullback? if that was the tactic, then we deserved to let in that try.

sonny bill was our most dangerous player, but he kept losing the ball! how many times did he lose it, 4 times??

benji marshall played exactly the same as hes been playing for the tigers the last few weeks. not very effective in my eyes. I think he may have lost it.

fa'alogo had a few good moments. I think he'll go well for us in future, and I now see why Bluey started him.

we keep letting in trys out wide! its the days of francis meli all over again! I think our defence out wide, our silly penalties all night, and coughing up possesion all night are the three main reasons why we're always losing.

very VERY depressing that night, but I'm over it now. :) back to following the Warriors I think.

I was very disapointed with roberts fluffing the bomb, and kicking the ball out on the full. he seems to have a strong boot though, he looks like he may get a few 40/20's this season for the bulldogs.

oh yeah, good stuff from mannering and vatuvei not letting a tackled player hit the ground, and then stuffing him up over the sideline with the ball :) thats a prominent play from the kiwis in recent times, I love it. especially when it ends up with 5 guys pushing him out. hehe
 

Tau Hoa_old

Guest
Agree completely, for me SBW and INU were the standouts. Soliola also had his moments.

Puletua, webster, mannering disappointed me

Webster was very ordinary and look like he couldn't keep up with the pace. Question marks over Sam R and Eastwood who both seemed like they were out of there depth and Puletua did seem to knock off early. Asotasi led by example. Mannering and Soliola were very strong defencesively. Inu was more than competent while Benji Marshall was only running on 1/2 throttle.
All that said a longer preparation could have made a hell of a difference.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
I didn't get to see the match damn the Melbourne tv coverage...grrr...but from what I hear all in all it wasn't as bad as the score is making it out to be. Gotta take heart from it in some ways.
 

Joe 90_old

Guest
One major weakness the Kiwis and to some extent the Warriors both have which was once again evident last night is the lack of variation in making yards. When will we realise that hitting it one off the ruck for 4 plays and then kick just does not cut it in the modern game.

The aussies nailed us every time we tried to bring the ball out of our 20. They knew the ball carrier had no options so were just able to sprint off their line and gang tackle our big boys before we could even get to that advantage line.

I noticed that the aussies would quite often have a playmaker( Thurston, Lockyer,Hunt) at 1st receiver which would immediately put our defensive line in doubt and they would run there options off that. In the 2nd half as the opposition tires, their fast backs get in at dummy half and tear us up.

Where are the dummy runners, the late cuts, the change of direction, anything to put some doubt in that defensive line. Maybe its a philisophical difference between Oz and NZ. We seem to produce that style of player that just steamrolls over the top of opposition while the aussies have learned to get players in motion and run at holes rather than the man.

A wily old coach once told me that if you can stop the opposition from reaching the advantage line in their 1st 2 tackles, that will determine how much yards they make after 5. It would seem the aussies understand the importance of this and i just wish we would get some smarts and come up with something different to counteract this.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
One major weakness the Kiwis and to some extent the Warriors both have which was once again evident last night is the lack of variation in making yards. When will we realise that hitting it one off the ruck for 4 plays and then kick just does not cut it in the modern game.

The aussies nailed us every time we tried to bring the ball out of our 20. They knew the ball carrier had no options so were just able to sprint off their line and gang tackle our big boys before we could even get to that advantage line.

I noticed that the aussies would quite often have a playmaker( Thurston, Lockyer,Hunt) at 1st receiver which would immediately put our defensive line in doubt and they would run there options off that. In the 2nd half as the opposition tires, their fast backs get in at dummy half and tear us up.

Where are the dummy runners, the late cuts, the change of direction, anything to put some doubt in that defensive line. Maybe its a philisophical difference between Oz and NZ. We seem to produce that style of player that just steamrolls over the top of opposition while the aussies have learned to get players in motion and run at holes rather than the man.

A wily old coach once told me that if you can stop the opposition from reaching the advantage line in their 1st 2 tackles, that will determine how much yards they make after 5. It would seem the aussies understand the importance of this and i just wish we would get some smarts and come up with something different to counteract this.
Very good assesment there Joe, and I'd certainly agree esp with the Warriors point of view
 

milcr_old

Guest
I dont think anyone has pointed out what I thought was the major reason for the loss:

OUR RUCK DEFENCE! It was shocking! Tate, Hodges etc etc were getting 15m out of every dummy half run in the second half. They were travelling 60-70m a set, then being able to put up bombs etc on 5th tackle. Compare to Kiwis 30-40m sets and its obvisous why we lost.

Also, we tend to make things complicated! Heletau isnt a dummy half. His passing is slow and inaccurate. Hes a great tackler and hit-up man, but thats not a 9's role. 9's should distrubute, and go for dummy half runs when there on. Terence SeuSeu is by far NZ's best dummy half - counting out Fien
 

danco_old

Guest
Thank god we still have the warriors. kiwis' better luck next time as we need it, fullback, halfback, standoff, hooker,all need looking at?????
 

hoanihorsfall_old

Guest
One major weakness the Kiwis and to some extent the Warriors both have which was once again evident last night is the lack of variation in making yards. When will we realise that hitting it one off the ruck for 4 plays and then kick just does not cut it in the modern game.

The aussies nailed us every time we tried to bring the ball out of our 20. They knew the ball carrier had no options so were just able to sprint off their line and gang tackle our big boys before we could even get to that advantage line.

I noticed that the aussies would quite often have a playmaker( Thurston, Lockyer,Hunt) at 1st receiver which would immediately put our defensive line in doubt and they would run there options off that. In the 2nd half as the opposition tires, their fast backs get in at dummy half and tear us up.

Where are the dummy runners, the late cuts, the change of direction, anything to put some doubt in that defensive line. Maybe its a philisophical difference between Oz and NZ. We seem to produce that style of player that just steamrolls over the top of opposition while the aussies have learned to get players in motion and run at holes rather than the man.

A wily old coach once told me that if you can stop the opposition from reaching the advantage line in their 1st 2 tackles, that will determine how much yards they make after 5. It would seem the aussies understand the importance of this and i just wish we would get some smarts and come up with something different to counteract this.


Your right there was no variation on attack they knew that sonny bill was getting the ball and they just doubled up on him. He played his guts ouyt but we put to much pressure on him.

I thoughts we had too many big men in the pack and not enough workers. Eastwood, faalogo were good whilst Puleatua shouldve not been in the team. Cayless and Asotasi were awesome.

We should just keep Pritchard and Williams as the ball runners thats it keep it simple and the rest of the guys should stop ball watching and just run for the gaps.

Our Dummy half running was very avg. We always perform well with quick dummy halfs and thats when Benji is in his element. Faiuma/SeuSeu/Fein are good distributers.

Why do we insist on Stupid wingers who get caught out all the time , come in on defence and leave a gaping whole on the outside!!, vatuvei is an accident waiting to happen (drop 1 ball a game). All I want is a fast winger who can catch, defend and run from dummy half in our own 20. Why dont we go with Covell? I hear he's made himself available for the kiwis and hes a kicker!!. Webster had a shocker too.

Some people thought Mannering was bad but I thought he and Soiola did a great job and Inu was safe at the back (its good we get specialist players for the right position rather that a Centre playing Fullback)... Roberts shouldve kicked early in our own 20. (40/20?)

So who else can we inject into the team? Webb , another Prop?, Winger? Maybe stick Mannering into the Pack and give Whatuira and go.

We are so predictable and that must change .. and only Bluey can do that. But I think with more prep time and consecutive games (end of year tri Series) we can solidify playing combinations and play more as a unit.


Just my 5c

cheers Hoani
 

Kaiaua krusher_old

Guest
Actually I am getting a little bit tired of the team being labelled as young. For mine there was a wealth of experience and talent in that team. Sure they were young as in age but most of that forward pack have played pretty much as a unit since 2005.

Mannering was one of my best players. His defence was tireless and he took full advantage of his limited attacking opportunities. SBW was very good, miles ahead of Frank Pritchard, Tony Puleatua and the likes.

We held our position very well in the first half, but Stewart noticed we weren't that smart around the ruck defence area as we were covering for the Aussie expansive game. So for for the first 15 mins in the second half he sent his quick men to make yards out of dummy half. We weren't smart enough to counter that and it looked to me if we were caught in two minds defensively ie to compress around the ruck or drift to stop the wide runners. I think in the end we did a bit of both and ended up leaking across the park.

I have said it before and will say it again, Benji needs more game time to regain his confidence - not about his ability to play the game, but more to test his own resolve to test his shoulder both on attack and defence. He is a talent no doubt about it, but with him drifting in an out of the game, it was up to Roberts and Halatau to take on the line more around the ruck area.

Despite the loss, I liked at lot of what I saw, Asotasi gets my vote as Captain, even when Kidwell returns, Roberts is worth perservering with for the end of year tour and Inu too looks very handy. Sam is still to turn 20 and I think he is tough enough and talented to be one of our best in the future. He was, I think a successful Junior Kiwi Capt, so obviously has leadership skills.

I say keep the ANZAC tests going even though we are behind the 8 ball - where the hell else do we get the opportunity to blood new talent on the international stage, so that we can add depth to our ranks, stop the Aussies getting in the ear of our up and coming players, and producing a very good squad to contest the Tri Series and World Cup. After all it is only a matter of time before we will be competitive at ANZAC test time, without the impostion of injury and the unavailability of the UK based players. Has to be good for our game!!!
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Actually I am getting a little bit tired of the team being labelled as young. For mine there was a wealth of experience and talent in that team. Sure they were young as in age but most of that forward pack have played pretty much as a unit since 2005.

I agree with just about everything you said, KK, but just thought I'd pick up on this point and investigate it.

Previous test experience heading into last week's ANZAC Test:

1. Krisnan Inu - 0 tests
2. Jake Webster - 7 tests
3. Iosia Soliola - 5 tests
4. Simon Mannering - 5 tests
5. Manu Vatuvei - 10 tests
6. Benji Marshall - 2 tests
7. Ben Roberts - 1 test
8. Nathan Cayless - 32 tests (captained 3 tests)
9. Dene Halatau - 6 tests
10. Roy Asotasi (c) - 16 tests
11. Sonny Bill Williams - 5 tests
12. Tony Puletua - 21 tests
13. David Fa'alogo - 5 tests

14. David Faiumu - 6 tests
15. Sam Rapira - 0 tests
16. Greg Eastwood - 0 tests
17. Frank Pritchard - 9 tests

First 13 total: 115 tests (3 as captain)
Bench total: 15 tests
17 total: 130 tests (3 as captain)

First 13 average: 8.85 tests (0.23 as captain)
Bench average: 3.75 tests
17 average: 7.65 tests (0.18 as captain)

When you consider that our three most experienced players in recent years have retired, we lost a total of 139 tests (Wiki 55, Jones 46, Vagana 38), of experience. Note that those three players alone had more experience than our entire ANZAC team that took the field last week. We also lost a lot of leadership, with 26 captained tests (Wiki 18, Jones 7, Vagana 1), of experience. I'd say based on that, and the fact that only 4 of our 17 had made 10 appearances or more on the international stage, that it would be fair to say our team was inexperienced.
 

MiXmasterreece_old

Guest
In my HUMBLE opinion, a couple of things should be learnt from that game:

* Puletua is no longer up to international football. UNLESS he has some sort of form renaissance or is switched to prop
* Halatau is not a hooker. His service is appalling.
* You just cant play Roberts and Marshall together at 6 and 7 and expect consistency. For mine Smith to 7 and Roberts to the bench to share the hooking duties. His kicking would be very handy from the ruck.
* Mannering IS over rated. Sorry lads but it's true. He is not currently up to international standard.
* Webster is a centre not a wing. We have plenty of good wingers coming through the ranks, we don't need to put someone who backs themself as a centre there.
* Sonny Bill had an off night and still looked like the most dangerous man on the paddock.
* Eastwood is going to figure in the Kiwis for a long time
* We have to find space for Inu in the next team even if web is back. Perhaps at centre.
* We need to look at other possible young props for the end of year tour.
 

MiXmasterreece_old

Guest
I agree with just about everything you said, KK, but just thought I'd pick up on this point and investigate it.

Previous test experience heading into last week's ANZAC Test:

1. Krisnan Inu - 0 tests
2. Jake Webster - 7 tests
3. Iosia Soliola - 5 tests
4. Simon Mannering - 5 tests
5. Manu Vatuvei - 10 tests
6. Benji Marshall - 2 tests
7. Ben Roberts - 1 test
8. Nathan Cayless - 32 tests (captained 3 tests)
9. Dene Halatau - 6 tests
10. Roy Asotasi (c) - 16 tests
11. Sonny Bill Williams - 5 tests
12. Tony Puletua - 21 tests
13. David Fa'alogo - 5 tests

14. David Faiumu - 6 tests
15. Sam Rapira - 0 tests
16. Greg Eastwood - 0 tests
17. Frank Pritchard - 9 tests

First 13 total: 115 tests (3 as captain)
Bench total: 15 tests
17 total: 130 tests (3 as captain)

First 13 average: 8.85 tests (0.23 as captain)
Bench average: 3.75 tests
17 average: 7.65 tests (0.18 as captain)

When you consider that our three most experienced players in recent years have retired, we lost a total of 139 tests (Wiki 55, Jones 46, Vagana 38), of experience. Note that those three players alone had more experience than our entire ANZAC team that took the field last week. We also lost a lot of leadership, with 26 captained tests (Wiki 18, Jones 7, Vagana 1), of experience. I'd say based on that, and the fact that only 4 of our 17 had made 10 appearances or more on the international stage, that it would be fair to say our team was inexperienced.


I believe that NRL experience is probably superior than international experience. Pity that team on Friday night had little of both.
 

Kaiaua krusher_old

Guest
Jessbass, what you are saying is true, but by experience what I mean is that most of the guys have been around the NRL for sometime now, are mixing with the best players from both countries, experience how they prepare for games, their mental space and resolve, so surely this should rub off on them. Whizz even said that on TV last night, he learnt more about football after being dropped to reserve grade to improve his mental attitude to the game. He quickly matured and got rid of his stupidity and impulsiveness.
 

billybob_old

Guest
I was working and subsequently saw only the second half. As far as I was concerned the simple reason Oz was making sooo much ground from dummy half was the same one that has been an issue before now for both the warriors and the kiwis, standing and waiting on defence instead of moving up to shut the opposition down. As you all well know this leads to far too much room for the classy Ozzy playmakers.
 

Jesbass_old

Guest
Jessbass, what you are saying is true, but by experience what I mean is that most of the guys have been around the NRL for sometime now, are mixing with the best players from both countries, experience how they prepare for games, their mental space and resolve, so surely this should rub off on them. Whizz even said that on TV last night, he learnt more about football after being dropped to reserve grade to improve his mental attitude to the game. He quickly matured and got rid of his stupidity and impulsiveness.

I agree, KK. The team had plenty of first grade experience, except for Inu and Roberts.

I do think that international level is above club level, though, (passion and pride for one's country, patriotism, the haka), so experience was still lacking there.

At the end of the day, we simply got outplayed and outwitted. After all, our 2005 Tri-Nations final team was inexperienced in certain areas.
 

commonsense_old

Guest
i hate to say i told u so.... ive been a fan of tony puletua for ages, but after watching recent panthers games he is way past his prime. i even reckon pritchard is a country mile ahead of him. speaking of which why wasnt pritchard playing that much game?

i thought sonny bill williams was our best player. BUT having said that, i only say that because of the workload he put out. the things is sonny isnt as effective if he is playing a "nathan hindmarsh game". all game he was diving on loose balls and tackling his guts out and then ppl start having a go at him for having no impact in attack. sbw put 110% effort but he had it in the wrong direction but in his defence someone had to do it or else the aussies wouldve had another 50 point game on us.

our halves seemed to have copped a fair bit of blame too. i thought ben roberts kicking game was great. i dunno who said he cant kick. im just glad to see finally in a kiwi team someone who can put some distance on a general kick. but unfortunately besides his kicking game he provided our attack no direction. i guess for that u can blame his inexperience. if he can continue to play first grade for the doggies i have faith he can develop into a game-breaker. the bulldogs seem to have a knack to developing great players.
mr benji marshall... what can u say about him?? for the record this guy is my favourite player, but he did let me down after a big talkup of himself b4 the test match. i expected benji of 2005 on friday. but i shouldve known better. its not easy coming back from a season-ending shoulder injury. i dont think benji was all bad. he showed some of his unpredictable brillance towards the end of the game. im kinda sick of ppl saying that jonathan thurston is the new best player in the NRL. only because i believe in 2005 JT and benji were pretty much on par, if it wasnt for that bloody injury you can only imagine where benji would be now.
all i can say i dont wanna hear BENJI IS PAST HIS BEST!! he is only 21!!!! he pretty much has to start from scatch again. but he would get back there and beyond.

and how about krisnan inu?? how awesome was he?? since this is the so-called "dawn of a new beginning for the kiwi team" im kind of concerned that the eels have him groomed as a centre to replace tahu. he cant really develop into a world-class fullback playing centre. i mean sure he can get picked every test and play a solid game but he wont play to his full potential in the position. i hope either the eels switch luke burt and inu or another nrl team picks up and have him play fullback.

i wasnt a fan of having a halatau playing starting hooker. i think at best he is a backup hooker on the bench. we have a few guys in the nrl playing hooker eg seuseu, fien, faiumu, hohaia. one of these guys have to step and claim hat no 9 jersey.

im still pretty optimistic of the kiwis immediate future. the aussies are still way ahead of us no doubt. we are almost there, especially when mr darren lockyer retires. i confident that benji will regain his top form, also its great having to halfbacks in jeremy smith and ben roberts competing for stacey's jersey. we have found a backup fullback to brent webb. things look bright
 

Joe 90_old

Guest
Pretty much agree with everything youve said here 50cense.

Regarding Benji Marshall dont panic, Benji still possesses all those sublime skills that make him such an exciting talent. A few things have changed this year for him however which has meant he's had to play a different type of game.

Obviously returning from injury.

Mostly not having Scotty Prince as a halves partner. People are under the misconception that Benji has been the Tigers playmaker for the last few years. This is wrong, Prince was the go to man. He was the dude that directed traffic, set up plays, kicked for field position and generally set the tempo for that team. This freed up Benji to do what he does best, roam around the field and inject himself into the play using those phenomenal skills he has to cause havoc.

This season with John Morris at halfback, who has had minimal influence, has meant Benji has had to take on more of this setting up role, which means he has had less oppertunity to inject himself into the game the way we would all love him to. The same occured in the test match with Roberts still learning to direct a team around. For this reason i would of had Jeremy Smith at halfback because he is very good at organising an attack.giving Benji more freedom.

However Benji is a talented player who can grow into this playmaking role and retain those great individual attacking skills. But as with a lot of the youngsters in the Kiwi's it will take time.
 
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Mone_old

Guest
The problem was the foward pack most of these guys are lazy wide running get in the backs way type players.
The backs will take care of themselves, ok people say SBW made the biggest impact but where? on the wing he didnt hit around the ruck.