Staff Andrew Webster

[playdaball]

What field kicking options do we have?
Shaun Johnson - will have to almost kick on every play, need a back up
Te Maire Martin - Haven't seen him kick too much
Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad - Haven't seen him kick at all
Egan - rarely kicks
Metcalf - Not sure, more of a runner
Volkman - Not sure how much 1st grade he'll get
Lussick - No idea

Last year we had:
Shaun Johnson, Chanel Harris-Tavita, Asi, Walsh

 

[JaggedJ]

I could not agree more. The NZW are amateurs when it come to the mental aspects of the game. But mental fatigue and physical fatigue are related. A player's brain needs oxygen for decision making, just as muscles do for running, and a working brain consumes a lot of oxygen. A physically fatigued player --like a fatigued driver or machine operator-- makes more mistakes and errors.

Absolutely, no disagreement there, but in pure RL terms when you get to the final 20 minutes both teams are tired, yet we're the ones with a pattern of failing to make the right decisions.

I don't believe the opposition are so much fitter than us otherwise they'd be running over the top of us and we'd be conceding a lot of points in the final 20.

The fact our D for the most part is holding up late in close games tells me that we're not losing because we run out of gas.

Seems weird to say our D is holding up considering how many points we conceded, but even our blow out losses, the games were pretty much over at halftime. That's a "not mentally prepared" issue more than a physical fitness issue.

On the other hand maybe the truth is even more simple - we don't have players who can break the game open when it's there to be won.

 

[YeahNah 4020]

I actually think Te Maire Martin has a better kicking game than Chanel Harris-Tavita. Chanel Harris-Tavita might have a longer boot, but Te Maire Martin (in my opinion) finds the grass more often and has a much better short kicking game for repeat sets.

I didn't see Walsh kicking much last year, more in 2021 so not sure how to think about that.

I'd just like to see more variety than a 5th tackle bomb from wherever we are on the field...

Agree
For me, Walsh is just raw talent (potentially) but is currently just SPEED

He needs a SuperCoach to get him tuned into the basics and the mental game, which neither us or the Broncos can provide

I feel he will be lost in the could of beens

Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad is solid and experience and hopefully we get him up and primed and he can help strengthen the backline

Te Maire Martin has more footy IQ and game knowledge with a silky skill set, yes maybe not A Grade Beef but def an upgrade on Reece and Chanel Harris-Tavita

 

[Warriorsitsouryear]

‘Reece Walsh and Chanel Harris-Tavita are huge losses in their spine and have been replaced by clear downgrades in Nicoll-Klokstad and Te Maire Martin, who will likely fit it at five eighth.’

Does anyone actually agree with this?

I think Websters will be happy enough with who he’s got!

I disagree with the 'clear downgrade comments'.... However, I think most of the rest of the article is spot on. We just might be used to articles building the Warriors up and making many of the fan base believe that this is our year...again.

The journalist is critiquing our team and organization without rose tinted classes and without the need to try to find the positive in many things that are happening. Not replacing Lodge is massive! He is right. Fo me Lodge was our best player at while he was here last season.

 

[Brother Faisal]

Glad I am not the only one who see this. I cannot understand why our players are not screaming at the ref when this happens. All the Aussie sides do when it happens to them but we always seem so passive.

I agree. It’s why we can’t be one out. We have to be more dynamic with our play to counter what would be called “unintentional bias”.

the offload has always been a traditional strong point of successful warriors teams. But it has to be well balanced with structure. The offload is the only way to counter a quick defensive line and it also extends the play which has always been a warriors strength. We’ve lost a lot of that over the years and gone against our identity in many ways. Broken play was a really strong point of ours but the game has really moved away from this and has limited anything that isn’t off the cuff. You have to work your plays generally in todays game in order to score. we aren’t the best at working our plays either so it makes it hard for us to score while under the “unintentional bias” so to speak

 

[Jay M]

I agree. It’s why we can’t be one out. We have to be more dynamic with our play to counter what would be called “unintentional bias”.

the offload has always been a traditional strong point of successful warriors teams. But it has to be well balanced with structure. The offload is the only way to counter a quick defensive line and it also extends the play which has always been a warriors strength. We’ve lost a lot of that over the years and gone against our identity in many ways. Broken play was a really strong point of ours but the game has really moved away from this and has limited anything that isn’t off the cuff. You have to work your plays generally in todays game in order to score. we aren’t the best at working our plays either so it makes it hard for us to score while under the “unintentional bias” so to speak

It's why for so many years the warriors had a great record against the storm. The storm structure couldn't cope with the warriors offloads and support play. Then the warriors tried to play a more successful style of football (high completion rates and low errors), and I can't remember the last time we beat the storm (pretty sure none in the last six years).

At one point the warriors had won more than 50% of the storm games. Now it's 33%...

 

[Jaffa J]

It's why for so many years the warriors had a great record against the storm. The storm structure couldn't cope with the warriors offloads and support play. Then the warriors tried to play a more successful style of football (high completion rates and low errors), and I can't remember the last time we beat the storm (pretty sure none in the last six years).

At one point the warriors had won more than 50% of the storm games. Now it's 33%...

We haven't beaten them since the Nathan Friend try so 2015 long time ago

 

[Brother Faisal]

It's why for so many years the warriors had a great record against the storm. The storm structure couldn't cope with the warriors offloads and support play. Then the warriors tried to play a more successful style of football (high completion rates and low errors), and I can't remember the last time we beat the storm (pretty sure none in the last six years).

At one point the warriors had won more than 50% of the storm games. Now it's 33%...

I think the exhilaration we had as fans back then was more from what crazy way we would score or come from behind to win. Now we just wait to see at what stage in the game we collapse.

Despite our ups and downs back then no stone was left unturned. Yes some games the offload would turn into errors and all that lack of structure would kill us. But it was always there as a means of scoring points quickly. Man we could really pile on points quickly back then. That’s something I miss about the warriors of old.

 

[Toookey]

What field kicking options do we have?
Shaun Johnson - will have to almost kick on every play, need a back up
Te Maire Martin - Haven't seen him kick too much
Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad - Haven't seen him kick at all
Egan - rarely kicks
Metcalf - Not sure, more of a runner
Volkman - Not sure how much 1st grade he'll get
Lussick - No idea

Last year we had:
Shaun Johnson, Chanel Harris-Tavita, Asi, Walsh

Yeah spot on, this will need to improve.
Te Maire Martin has about 30 games at 5/8, and averages about 35 kicking meters a game, only kicking more that 100m twice.

For me, were going to need a bit more from him and Egan. They probably need to kick about 25-30% of the time to help take some of the pressure off of Shaun Johnson imo.

 

[Canonball]

‘Reece Walsh and Chanel Harris-Tavita are huge losses in their spine and have been replaced by clear downgrades in Nicoll-Klokstad and Te Maire Martin, who will likely fit it at five eighth.’

Does anyone actually agree with this?

I think Websters will be happy enough with who he’s got!

See the author's reply to a comment further down... this is nonsense:

"Walsh was the best player on their team so anyone is a downgrade, really. Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad was playing NSW Cup at the end of last year.

I agree that as a whole it might work out but try causes etc are pretty limited stats for FBs because usually they get stuck with a few that weren’t their fault. The defensive issues were far from Walsh’s fault in the way that (say) Tesi Niu was a clear weakness defensively for the Broncos"

 

[Brother Faisal]

What field kicking options do we have?
Shaun Johnson - will have to almost kick on every play, need a back up
Te Maire Martin - Haven't seen him kick too much
Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad - Haven't seen him kick at all
Egan - rarely kicks
Metcalf - Not sure, more of a runner
Volkman - Not sure how much 1st grade he'll get
Lussick - No idea

Last year we had:
Shaun Johnson, Chanel Harris-Tavita, Asi, Walsh

This is a genuine concern.

Last year really worried me when Shaun Johnson was consistently used as a 5th tackle go to. I love Shaun Johnson but I find he can become lazy with finishing sets. A lot of our sets finished in that kind of dead zone from like the 40-30m where a set play won’t really do anything. Shaun Johnson is great at the try line with cutout balls and short balls. With his lost speed I’ve felt he’s settled for the bomb which is defensive minded in its purpose to try pin the opposition in that 10metre line area on 1st tackle. He used to be a threat from that 49-30m range with his speed but those days are over.

I don’t mind if he is the go to for a bomb or whatever kicking he’s asked to do but we need to others to step up to create another option even if it’s running on the last I don’t mind but it can’t always be a bomb at the end of a set.

I haven’t seen much of TMMs kicking game to know what he can do. I know walker is good for a grubbed for himself sometimes. Egan is starting to explore his kicking abilities but I don’t think there’s anyone outside of Shaun Johnson with what I would call a threatening kicking game.

A Matt burton or a Cleary with those bombs are lethal. Those are the types of kickers that can change a whole teams tactics. Or a cherry evans with the 40-20. Tavita Harris had those skills to offset Shaun’s kicking skills. In fact Shaun is a great kicker. He has a good bomb. His short kicking game is amazing on a given day where he’s really feeling it.

Hard to say right now but I hope we can find some others and see what they can offer.

 

[Gizzyfan]

I come from a Union background and will throw some things out there and see what you think.

I see a correlation between Te Maire Martin and former ABs 1st 5, Aaron Cruden. Both have gone through dangerous medical events (Cruden testicular cancer). Do not under estimate the mental toughness such things bring. It does translate onto the field. As far as kicking goes if I chose between length and Accuracy, no contest Accuracy.

The play the ball equates to a Union Halfback clearing from a ruck. The secret to speed is to pass off the ground, picking the ball up, then passing destroys all momentum of the outsides. Far better to have a shorter snappy pass than a loopy longer one.

One option I thought of later in the count is to pass it wide and kick it parallel to the touchline by the Centres, more of a chip ahead than a long kick.

A lot of the passing skills of NZ players, Union and League are, quite frankly shit. Until that improves you are going to get crap offensive stats. Egan is highlighted but is all the players. In modern Rugby, either code. everyone is required to be proficient at passing. How often do we see momentum killed by a pass to the hip, rather than in front for the player to run onto.

 

[Jay M]

The play the ball equates to a Union Halfback clearing from a ruck. The secret to speed is to pass off the ground, picking the ball up, then passing destroys all momentum of the outsides. Far better to have a shorter snappy pass than a loopy longer one.

On this point, it depends on a couple of things. I played union and league growing up, and while the league ruck is similar to a union ruck, there are a couple of differences.

Firstly, aside from the markers, everyone else is "back 10 metres" (unless playing the warriors)... This means that if there's a good play the ball, or the markers aren't set, the dummy half can attempt to run or engage the markers before passing without destroying momentum. It's especially effective if the dummy half can engage the first A defender before passing. Leads to time and space.

Secondly, passing off the ground straight away can be really hard in league. In union, the defenders aren't meant to move until the halfback picks up the ball. In league the ruck has a couple more variables for the dummy half. As a ball runner (e.g. prop/middle forward) timing your run can be really hard. Why? Because you don't know if it's going to be a 3 second play the ball, a 4 second PTB or a 5 second PTB. This is why you (too often) see a dummy half doing a "Justin Marshall", e.g. taking 2-4 steps before passing. The other complicating factor for momentum is that if the pass from dummy half doesn't get quite wide enough, the runner will be tackled early by the marker(s) nullifying metreage, the d line doesn't need to move back and slowing down the play the ball.

I really like your post from a union perspective and I agree with the points, just the league ruck is a bit different.

The league ruck sadly at the moment is about the wrestle and play the ball speed. Sometimes it's a better option to not try and fight the tackle for an extra metre trading off for a slower play the ball. It's really difficult to coach though - quite often it's experience that teaches this. This is why the warriors need to bring back more offloads and have support runners. Having 1-2 defenders having to hold wider means more yardage, faster play the balls and more time and space for the hooker and halves to do their thing.

Hope this makes sense.

*Edit*. P.S. Really agree with your last point that a lot of passing in both codes in NZ is terrible. So often it's the pass that puts someone into space or gives them the half step advantage to the outside which leads to a break. Accurate passing at speed is such a difficult skill. Shaun Johnson is actually really good at it (from his touch background), but for most players it needs work and it's especially critical for halves, the fullback and the centres.

 

[Gizzyfan]

On this point, it depends on a couple of things. I played union and league growing up, and while the league ruck is similar to a union ruck, there are a couple of differences.

Firstly, aside from the markers, everyone else is "back 10 metres" (unless playing the warriors)... This means that if there's a good play the ball, or the markers aren't set, the dummy half can attempt to run or engage the markers before passing without destroying momentum. It's especially effective if the dummy half can engage the first A defender before passing. Leads to time and space.

Secondly, passing off the ground straight away can be really hard in league. In union, the defenders aren't meant to move until the halfback picks up the ball. In league the ruck has a couple more variables for the dummy half. As a ball runner (e.g. prop/middle forward) timing your run can be really hard. Why? Because you don't know if it's going to be a 3 second play the ball, a 4 second PTB or a 5 second PTB. This is why you (too often) see a dummy half doing a "Justin Marshall", e.g. taking 2-4 steps before passing. The other complicating factor for momentum is that if the pass from dummy half doesn't get quite wide enough, the runner will be tackled early by the marker(s) nullifying metreage, the d line doesn't need to move back and slowing down the play the ball.

I really like your post from a union perspective and I agree with the points, just the league ruck is a bit different.

The league ruck sadly at the moment is about the wrestle and play the ball speed. Sometimes it's a better option to not try and fight the tackle for an extra metre trading off for a slower play the ball. It's really difficult to coach though - quite often it's experience that teaches this. This is why the warriors need to bring back more offloads and have support runners. Having 1-2 defenders having to hold wider means more yardage, faster play the balls and more time and space for the hooker and halves to do their thing.

Hope this makes sense.

*Edit*. P.S. Really agree with your last point that a lot of passing in both codes in NZ is terrible. So often it's the pass that puts someone into space or gives them the half step advantage to the outside which leads to a break. Accurate passing at speed is such a difficult skill. Shaun Johnson is actually really good at it (from his touch background), but for most players it needs work and it's especially critical for halves, the fullback and the centres.

Thanks for that Mate, very interesing. It was actually Justin Marshall I was thinking of. The League PPTB like the Union ruck/maul have been totally FUBARd by the respective codes.

This was partly why I wrote the post. I was talking to a mate who has coached professionally here and in the Northern Hemisphere. We were moaning how some things had dropped out of the game, like using the blindside as a tactic. He told me something that gobsmacked me.

Before it went professional, the ABs and a lot of teams had a move called 'Lefto'. A scrum on the rhs of the field close to the line. Halfback runs blind, Wing comes in on the cut and FB runs the outside, brilliant move because so many options are possible. Apparently not allowed to be implemented now by the NZRU. No reason given. Reinventing the wheel.

As a Union player I always admired the Auckland League side before the Warriors. They should have provided the DNA for the new club.

 

[Jay M]

Thanks for that Mate, very interesing. It was actually Justin Marshall I was thinking of. The League PPTB like the Union ruck/maul have been totally FUBARd by the respective codes.

This was partly why I wrote the post. I was talking to a mate who has coached professionally here and in the Northern Hemisphere. We were moaning how some things had dropped out of the game, like using the blindside as a tactic. He told me something that gobsmacked me.

Before it went professional, the ABs and a lot of teams had a move called 'Lefto'. A scrum on the rhs of the field close to the line. Halfback runs blind, Wing comes in on the cut and FB runs the outside, brilliant move because so many options are possible. Apparently not allowed to be implemented now by the NZRU. No reason given. Reinventing the wheel.

As a Union player I always admired the Auckland League side before the Warriors. They should have provided the DNA for the new club.

As soon as I saw your original post, I thought of Marshall to be honest.

It's why PJ Marsh was so good for us, he knew when to pass, knew when to run, knew when to draw. I think Egan can get there, he's a converted dummy half though (played his juniors at five eighth).

One of the reasons the storm controlled games so well was Cam Smith. But if the refs had called him for forward passes to his props who were often over-running the ball, leading him to pass it forward, the storm wouldn't have looked that great without the extra momentum...

 

[Mr Brownstone]

See the author's reply to a comment further down... this is nonsense:

"Walsh was the best player on their team so anyone is a downgrade, really. Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad was playing NSW Cup at the end of last year.

I agree that as a whole it might work out but try causes etc are pretty limited stats for FBs because usually they get stuck with a few that weren’t their fault. The defensive issues were far from Walsh’s fault in the way that (say) Tesi Niu was a clear weakness defensively for the Broncos"

It’s arguably harsh however it’s not necessarily nonsense. As far as attacking opportunities went, Walsh was probably the player that tried the most to create them, however unlike 2021, it didn’t really click last season. Big question mark for where our points come from in 2023 as our back line and spine does appear to lack x-factor.

Then re defence, I agree with him - try causes attributed to a fullback is often going to be a consequence of poor lead up defence. Last season we were generally terrible and it definitely wasn’t just Walsh. Middle forwards still retreating with their backs turned to the opposition who have played the ball and are back on attack is never a good platform - our captain in particular was guilty of that when he came back from injury.

 

[playdaball]

RU Halfbacks quite lierally throw hundreds of passes at weekly traininbgs looking for accuracy and speed ... I don't think RL dummy halves do this to the same extent.

 

[Sup42]

RU Halfbacks quite lierally throw hundreds of passes at weekly traininbgs looking for accuracy and speed ... I don't think RL dummy halves do this to the same extent.

Great discussion point.

Rugby league halves in England are better at passing than anything in NZ Union or Austrailian RL.

Australian RL halves are on a par with NZ Union.

What you are criticizing here is NZ RL halves.

In NZ RL skills are coached by Ted and Bill and Rangi who played in the NZ comp which has fewer than one hundred men who might be better than club league rubbish under club coaches who have zero formal experience in their sport.

Ergo to put your argument in context Sam Tomkins was a better passer of the football than anyone who ever played in NZ RL.

Henry Paul was a better passer of the ball as an ESL product than any RU player in sevens.

England produces the best passers in the world because that is how they play in the backs.

English League halves grow up as passers of the ball, no Allblack ever threw balls as good as Tomkins cut out flat balls....show me evidence of any All Black or Springbok or Wallaby who even came near Tomkins edge plays using ball to beat man in a thousand replays......


Sorry but what you are asserting is that Union halves have better training than someone at Papakura league club under Joe Bloggs from nowhere who watched a bunch of TV games and his kid asked him to coach his under 5s team.

Of course Union halves have better training.


However RL still owns the mantle of superior passing skills.



I agree with you raising the difference. But I feel the need to caution...there is a reason the ALl Blacks are too scared to accept the Kangaroos challenge to a hybrid game.

If the Blacks had big balls they would just wipe the Roos to prove a point.

..

 

[Brother Faisal]

On the passing discussion.

I’m surprised passing in general hasn’t truely grown globally to where forwards in either code can fluidly pass the ball with both hands and also make all the various passes.

If you compare it to soccer the passing and control of the ball has developed to an elite level in which professionals have amazing control and touch and are able to pass in the smallest of spaces and with all the variants required to play the game.

It surprises me that passing in either form of rugby hasn’t developed to the level equivalent of what soccer would be. We still have props who can’t pass the ball at professional levels and hookers in league who can’t pass both ways.

The game is still along way off from those truely advanced levels although I will say league passing has to be the best of either code in terms of passes at the line and quick hands.

But we should be at a point where a prop can do what a half can do. It shows that all the skills of the game are not being taught in the juniors and kids are already being isolated to compartmental skills from day one.

I would say the same about kicking that each player no matter what position should have kicking skills. Speaks to the levels of development soccer have compared to us. I understand they predominantly kick the ball so they should be good at it. But passing should be treated the same.

 

[gubbbs]

It’s arguably harsh however it’s not necessarily nonsense. As far as attacking opportunities went, Walsh was probably the player that tried the most to create them, however unlike 2021, it didn’t really click last season. Big question mark for where our points come from in 2023 as our back line and spine does appear to lack x-factor.

Then re defence, I agree with him - try causes attributed to a fullback is often going to be a consequence of poor lead up defence. Last season we were generally terrible and it definitely wasn’t just Walsh. Middle forwards still retreating with their backs turned to the opposition who have played the ball and are back on attack is never a good platform - our captain in particular was guilty of that when he came back from injury.

Walsh cost us more points than he created last year. Lodge was more important than Walsh, let alone Addin Fonua-Blake and Tohu Harris. I agree with a lot of the points of the article and unfortunately think avoiding the spoon is a realistic goal for us next year. However that's miles off the mark. Walsh will be a star but the dude was a speed bump on defense. He'll be better this year which will make the loss look worse but he really did shit all for us last year, Chanel Harris-Tavita at full back would have been a similar result.
He's right about our spine and it pisses me off. With a spine like this we should be studded with over paid players in other positions, for example an addo carr. Instead we basically have none, just a couple of high end forwards in Tohu Harris and Addin Fonua-Blake like any other team. It made more sense when we had Roger Tuivasa-Sheck on a big packet carrying the team. The NRL is an unfair game and we sure cop it, meanwhile the Roosters bring in Brandon Smith??
Next years goal should be a platform, we're not going to be competitive barring a miracle in which case sign Webby up for life. We need to shake off our reputation and focus on securing kiwi talent pathways. There's more than enough kiwi talent to win the prem, we're just not first, second or third choice.
While that gets sorted Webby needs to build on the platform Kearney built of professionalism. The results aren't there but we're largely free of the embarrassing blunders of previous years.

Wouldn't do any harm if the NRL would look to make for a fairer comp. As it is, the rich will get richer. American sports have drafts for a reason and strict severe punishments for salary cap cheating. Can you imagine the Patriots record if they didn't draft last every second year for a couple decades?