General An absolute disgrace

Kiwi League_old

Guest
Reading the aussie papers today, they are stating categorically that the Warriors WILL lose 6 competition points. I'm pretty pissed off about this.
This thing has just blown up, to my knowledge an investigation by the NRL has just started, and already the aussie papers say we WILL be docked 6 competition points.
There will be a hell of a lot of bad blood on this side of the Tasman if we actually lose exactly 6 competition points.
Quite frankly, that will mean that the investigation is a total sham, because the Warriors will have been pre-tried, & the outcome leaked to the aussie media in advance. And the leak could only have come from David Gallop or Ian Schubert.
 

Ronnie_7_old

Guest
Mate it happens all the time over there. They like to absolutely slam us when some scandal, that frankly they did first, comes to light but when it's one of their own they down play it like oh it's just s boo boo. Pffft. And ontop of that they will always try and claim anything great that comes out of this country as their own. I even heard that they tried to claim good old Maori boy Michael Cambell as their own because 'his wife is Australian'. Pffft. Bloody Aussies. Some of them are quite goo but then others are just a load of BS
 

Kiwi League_old

Guest
If it turns out to be exactly 6 points, what's the point of going through the whole farce of having an investigation? F U NRL is what I'll be saying.
 

dazzler13_old

Guest
The papers get that information from within the NRL and the Warriors so they are not to be blamed for writing that sort of stuff.
It is as clear as day that the Warriors have been cheating and should be punished accordingly. It pains me to say that as a Warriors fan but the fact remains that they broke the rules.
All the NRL doing is finding out just how bad they have been broken but it goes without saying that they are over by more than $500,000 and that results in the loss of competition points.
Its frustrating for us fans but the bottom line is that we should vent that in the right direction which is towards the people responsible.
That means Watson, his management team and the board for either....
1. Knowing about it and doing nothing
or
2. Not knowing but being completely incompetent
If Watson was able to get away with that sort of thing in this day and age after the Bulldogs fiasco then the board should go too.
 

MarkW_old

Guest
If it really is this figure of $500k plus that is being touted by the media, then that is a HUGE breach! And to be frank the club deserves to be punished if they have been blatantly flouting the laws. I know we'd be baying for blood if clubs like the Roosters had been doing the same.

It still baffles me that these 'discrepancies' haven't been picked up before.
I tend to think they were known about but kept quiet, for obvious reasons.. either that or the management were plain thick.
It almost seems as if Scurrah has blown the whistle on them in a sense. I dread to think what was going through his head when he discovered the breach. Mick and co. have really dropped him in the sh!t!

Whatever the outcome, I hope the team can produce a solid season for the fans if no-one else. Who knows, maybe having their backs up against the wall will make them fight harder for a top 8 spot. Can you imagine the stink it would cause over the ditch if we did get in the top 8 having had points deducted? It'd be fantastic hahaha.
 

Mo_old

Guest
dazzler13 said:
The papers get that information from within the NRL and the Warriors so they are not to be blamed for writing that sort of stuff.
It is as clear as day that the Warriors have been cheating and should be punished accordingly. It pains me to say that as a Warriors fan but the fact remains that they broke the rules.
All the NRL doing is finding out just how bad they have been broken but it goes without saying that they are over by more than $500,000 and that results in the loss of competition points.
Its frustrating for us fans but the bottom line is that we should vent that in the right direction which is towards the people responsible.
That means Watson, his management team and the board for either....
1. Knowing about it and doing nothing
or
2. Not knowing but being completely incompetent
If Watson was able to get away with that sort of thing in this day and age after the Bulldogs fiasco then the board should go too.

Agree with your comments that questions need to be asked of management as to how the situation has been allowed to develop.

However, I would disagree that it goes without saying that a breach greater than $500,000 has to result in a loss of competition points.

My understanding is that sanction of a loss of competition points was intended to be applied to teams that in fact had competition points to lose. If the Warriors start on negative points this will be the first time that it has happened in the 98 year history of the league competition. This is not a situation where we have earned points (this year at least) while in breach of the rules.

Provided that the Warriors are under the salary cap by March 12 I believe it would be unfair and inappropriate if this year's points were affected. While I could be accused of bias for thinking this way on the basis that I am a passionate Warriors supporter my thinking would not be any different if another club was involved.

I'm certainly not saying that the NRL shouldn't take action and that the Warriors shoud go unpunished as I realise that would not be fair or acceptable. I just can't see how a loss of points is the appropriate response for what is effectively a pre-season breach that will be remedied prior to the start of the competition. In my opinion the appropriate response would be a fine (the severity of which will depend on the extent of the breach) and perhaps a statement from the NRL that had this breach been discovered during the season competition points would have been forfeited. This would certainly make any clubs who are not squeaky clean nervous.

We can debate as to whether there should be some adjustment to last year's points although that would probably open a can of worms unnecessarily given that the Warriors did not make the 8 and bets etc would have been paid out based on positions at the end of the competition. Would have been a complete minefield if we had won the competition.

Certainly glad that the alleged breach has been discovered now rather than part-way through the season as I do agree that if the numbers being talked about are correct that points earned during the season would be at risk.

Also realise that everything is speculative until the NRL's findings are released but it seems from the releases from the Warriors to date that we've got a problem, the question being how big is that problem.
 

dazzler13_old

Guest
I agree largely with what you are saying Mo but the problem is that the Warriors have got Price/Wiki playing with them now as a result of the breach. Should those players not have been offered the jobs after football that encouraged them to sign with the Warriors in the first place, they may have opted to remain with the Bulldogs or Canberra respectively.
Canberra are furious about this breach because they say they were not on a level playing field in trying to re-sign Wiki at the end of 2004.
It is an unfortunate situation for the NRL to have to find a punishment for. The Warriors stand to benefit from the breaches for the three years Price and Wiki are here for and like you say it is not possible to take away points from last year's total etc because of betting and the like.
A hefty fine might seem the most fair way to deal with it in this case but then it sets a dangerous precedent in that 'rich' clubs like the Roosters might be prepared to cop a hefty fine in the future if they can manipulate the cap that can bring them a title.
You could argue that after this development with the Warriors, the NRL will be more aware of possible future breaches but there is nothing stopping clubs from agreeing to pay a player $XXX three years after he finishes in setting up and offshore bank account etc to get the cash to him.
That money is not able to be traced back to the cap.
Maybe the NRL needs to have access to all of the club's finincial records, payments etc not just ones relating to registered players. I am not sure if legally that can be done however.
Possibly the best way to resolve this could be that Wiki and Price's contracts (if they were signed in an illegal way) were forced to be torn up and then become free agents.
The Warriors could re-sign them if they beat out the other NRL teams and followed appropriate salary cap regulations and, if there is a difference in financial $$ from their current contracts, the NRL could top them up for the individual player. This seems unrealistic of course.
 

Bulldog_old

Guest
Its clear that Mick Watson blatanlty flouted the salary cap rules (and he did a pretty DUMB job too now that he got caught) to try and fix his muck ups at the Warriors.
 

Mo_old

Guest
Very good thoughts dazzler13.

I think it would be difficult to establish that any one particular player is acquired as a direct result of the salary cap breach unless the salary cap had been expended prior to signing them and think it therefore very unlikely that it would ever get to the stage where contracts would be ripped up. Any player who was signed for 2005 or 2006 or who has had their contract upgraded could be viewed as the reason for the breach.

I don't believe that it is fair to say that Steve Price or Ruben Wiki only came for the money - I think there were a number of other "non-salary cap" factors (e.g. chance to come home for Ruben). I can understand Canberra being aggrieved though as Ruben is a huge loss to them - haven't heard the Bulldogs complaining yet about Steve Price.

Surely jobs after football should only count in the salary cap to the extent a player has been promised above market remuneration. By way of example - if a player was promised a job as a trainer which would normally attract a salary of $50,000 but the player was promised $100,000 I would expect that only the $50,000 excess should count. Not sure of the exact rules on this point though.

I don't think imposing a fine on the Warriors would set an adverse precedent because any club that is prepared to flout the salary cap runs the risk that they will be discovered mid-season and that the year will be for nothing. Certainly a significant risk to run as the Bulldogs discovered.

Will have to sit back and nervously await the outcome of the NRL's investigation.
 

dazzler13_old

Guest
I totally agree Mo.
But the problem is that, to my understanding, the salary cap regulations includes clubs offering jobs for life after football as part of the cap in the year they first appeared for the club - in Price and Wiki's case 2005.
The theory behind that is it is an incentive to come to that club.
I have posted the relevant part in the regulations below
The basic guide is that if a player is receiving money from any person as a way of inducing him to play for the club, then that money will be included in the salary cap.
I am guessing that is where the Warriors run into the most trouble.
 

Kiwi League_old

Guest
Coming back to my original point, I don't know why we should be nervously awaiting the findings of the NRL investigation, when we already know the outcome.
If you have experienced Australian journalists like Steve Mascord putting their necks on the line and putting in print "the Warriors will lose 6 competition points", then it's a done deal. It's the same as Wynne Gray reporting that Tana Umaga was retiring from international rugby prior to the test against Ireland.
Top journo's have too much at stake to get the facts wrong.

And that means the NRL 'investigation' is a joke / a disgrace / a farce / a waste of time, and anything else you can care to put in there.

If it's exactly 6 points, I will personally write to Ian Schubert and David Gallop demanding an explanation as to why that information was available to media on the 22nd of Feb.
 

*Kimmy*_old

Guest
Ronnie_7 said:
Mate it happens all the time over there. They like to absolutely slam us when some scandal, that frankly they did first, comes to light but when it's one of their own they down play it like oh it's just s boo boo. Pffft. And ontop of that they will always try and claim anything great that comes out of this country as their own. I even heard that they tried to claim good old Maori boy Michael Cambell as their own because 'his wife is Australian'. Pffft. Bloody Aussies. Some of them are quite goo but then others are just a load of BS

So when ever the bulldogs do something wrong, they let it go .... i know for a fact that they dont, they would do anything to bring the bulldogs down over there, especially the telecrap ... and rebecca wilson, i hate her guts

Even when the bulldogs do nothing, and its another team, they somehow manage to bring up past things about the bulldogs :?
 

Mo_old

Guest
Kiwi League said:
Coming back to my original point, I don't know why we should be nervously awaiting the findings of the NRL investigation, when we already know the outcome.
If you have experienced Australian journalists like Steve Mascord putting their necks on the line and putting in print "the Warriors will lose 6 competition points", then it's a done deal. It's the same as Wynne Gray reporting that Tana Umaga was retiring from international rugby prior to the test against Ireland.
Top journo's have too much at stake to get the facts wrong.

And that means the NRL 'investigation' is a joke / a disgrace / a farce / a waste of time, and anything else you can care to put in there.

If it's exactly 6 points, I will personally write to Ian Schubert and David Gallop demanding an explanation as to why that information was available to media on the 22nd of Feb.

Certainly hope you are wrong Kiwi League. I do agree that if the punishment has been pre-determined it is a disgrace.

I don't believe journalists get it right all the time though so I prefer to wait nervously.

It does seem a bit strange as to where this six point number has come from though as it seems particularly arbitrary. When the Bulldogs lost 37 points it was clearly linked to the points they earned while in breach.

I note that not all articles are suggesting that a six point penalty will apply.

The following article from the stuff.co.nz site by Tony Robson is a case in point:

Warriors extended a lifeline
23 February 2006
By TOBY ROBSON

SYDNEY: The National Rugby League has extended a lifeline to the New Zealand Warriors, saying they may not be stripped of competition points before the start of the season.


But the size and severity of the club's punishment for salary cap breaches dating back to 2004 may hinge on the results of an internal investigation which saw individual player interviews begin on the Gold Coast yesterday.

Australian newspapers widely reported that the Warriors would be docked two to six points and fined up to $A500,000 ($NZ560,000) after admitting on Tuesday to a number of "discrepancies" in relation to the NRL's $A3.25 million cap.

NRL director of communications John Brady said yesterday it was not a fait accompli that the Warriors begin the 2006 season on -2, -4 or -6 points.

"There are a range of penalties that are possibilities . . . but no, we have not committed at all on what the penalty might be."

Brady said that could range from a fine to a points deduction, but that no decision would be made till all information was made available to salary cap auditor Ian Schubert.

The NRL has wasted little time in beginning its investigation, sending the Warriors a preliminary report of its findings earlier in the week.

It is understood the Warriors were given till tomorrow to interview players about the details of their contracts and issues relating to the cap and to report back to the NRL.

That process began yesterday on the Gold Coast, where the Warriors are preparing for a pre-season match against the Bulldogs on Saturday night.

Warriors chairman Maurice Kidd confirmed club chief executive Wayne Scurrah and executive director of football John Hart were talking to the players.

"We have to work through with them and discuss the issues. Part of the issue is to talk to the players and find out what they know," Kidd said, before adding that players would not have their contracts downgraded regardless of the findings.

"We will stand by any legally binding contracts."

Details of the Warriors' breaches have not been revealed, but offences reported in the Daily Telegraph in Australia ranged from funnelling payments to players through Cullen Investments, offering stars high-paying jobs when they retired and flying player agents to and from New Zealand.

The Warriors and the Brisbane Broncos are the only privately owned clubs in the NRL – making their payments via private companies particularly difficult to audit.

Whatever the outcome, Kidd said it was too early to say the club would be docked points.

"Until we complete the investigation and they (the NRL) complete theirs it's a little premature to start talking about penalties. You can talk about them, but it's only speculation," Kidd said.

"We are working as hard as we can to minimise the breach and therefore minimise the penalty."

Kidd has been in the firing line as the club's chairman, but may have been a victim of the management practices of his predecessor Mick Watson, who was the club chief executive from 2001 till October last year.

The Warriors have operated two boards, one for the Warriors which runs the day to day operations, and one for Cullen Sports, the owners.

Kidd was a member of the Cullen board and Watson the chairman of the Warriors board.

It is understood the Warriors board rarely met, which could go some way to explaining why the breaches were not detected by board members or Kidd as the club's chairman.

Watson could not be reached yesterday but is understood to be happy to talk to the NRL.
 

L N_old

Guest
sadly the media has and will continue to dictate to the massess
the salary cap precedure has definetly been violated
the intent is the major issue evolving from this fiasco
how did it manifest into this current situation
and more signinficantly
why was it that the new management
where able to identify this
when others who were, and still are on the payroll did not
and the NRL have already stated that pass management indiscretions
will not be tolerated but would also not allow any new management team
the indiscretion of having no prior involvement in contractual incentives
that could surpass each individual clubs salary cap
as a club the severity of the punishment will have to be unfortunatley
of the extent where we could create history for all of the wrong reason
with the lost of points before season start and record fines....
the elusive inevitability in all of us begs to differ
up the mighty warriors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Mo_old

Guest
In my previous post I referred to an article by Tony Robson - as you will see from the article this should have been Toby Robson. Apologies to Toby.
 

mosh_old

Guest
Kiwi League said:
Coming back to my original point, I don't know why we should be nervously awaiting the findings of the NRL investigation, when we already know the outcome.
If you have experienced Australian journalists like Steve Mascord putting their necks on the line and putting in print "the Warriors will lose 6 competition points", then it's a done deal. It's the same as Wynne Gray reporting that Tana Umaga was retiring from international rugby prior to the test against Ireland.
Top journo's have too much at stake to get the facts wrong.

And that means the NRL 'investigation' is a joke / a disgrace / a farce / a waste of time, and anything else you can care to put in there.

If it's exactly 6 points, I will personally write to Ian Schubert and David Gallop demanding an explanation as to why that information was available to media on the 22nd of Feb.


Kiwi League I think its a different case here. Your point on Steve Mascord prematurely ejaculating about what could happen to us is based on (a teams who were fined DURING the NRL season and (b an outsiders opinion.

The NRL unfortunately aren't an outsider like the Sydney based media. What they hand down to the Warriors will reflect on them. -6 points against the Warriors will mean the crowds will be low, team morale will be low and sponsership might also be taken back for 2006. The NRL cannot afford the only NZ based team to struggle both on the field but off the field drawing crowds especially after the Tri-nations success where NZ Rugby League has reached its peak interms of interest. The NRL will take into consideration all these factors that the Sydney media clearly dont care about.
 

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