I like them crazy.
Also, NZ was definitely at the forefront of the modern 8hr work day.
Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics
- Thread starter wizard of Tauranga
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Also, NZ was definitely at the forefront of the modern 8hr work day.
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- #25,022
The bigger question is if unions are relevant in 2026? Unions are very much an old fashion divisive us and them style of employment relationship instead of the more collaborative relationship we get now a days.
I would argue society is naturally becoming more collaborative with shorter and more flexible hours as individualism expands (more politically right). The unions just take credit for a natural progression.
8 hour days/ 40 hour weeks and 2 days off for the weekend are outdated when people work a lot more flexible days and hours. More people would work part time than 40 hours now, wouldn’t they?
I agree with monopoly govt employee situations using collective pay (rather than negotiating with every single employee) but even then it should be strictly around pay and conditions not with unions getting out of their lane we see now.
That is all fine and dandy, but that conversation should happen without muddying the waters about what a union actually is and does.
"Eight hours' labour, Eight hours' recreation, Eight hours' rest"; Robert Owens 1817
Your AI gasses you up something craaazzzyyyy
NZ given as the first modern example (unprompted) and it doesn’t count as a pioneer? You do you, Frank!
Ahh see thats were you went wrong. All unions are regulated, doesnt mean they arent a cashcow for crims. Australias is just now uncovering it all, just like the USA did. NZ wont be on the scale obviously, but it will be there.
Unions were useful when the state lacked protection for workers and enforcement, but now the state acts as the union.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziDc4-c76fg
So no major corruption found in NZ. Gotcha. Where did state protection for workers come from, out of interest?
The Magna Carta
Jokes, unions as I already conceded. At a time when the state didnt protect workers.
So what's the current justifictation?
Read Article 13A of the WHO treaty we declined to sign over to.
Spoiler alert, it's a one-way street and "shall" is a non threatening substitute for "must", which "shall" be mandatory and "shall" be enforced regardless of you or your governments misgivings and objections.
Whilst it all sounds wonderful and for the good of mankind, I'm happy to borough into my rabbit hole while you be a lamb to the slaughter..
Article 13A
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- #25,030
Unions believe in compulsion to join and forced affiliation therefore are undemocratic.
Yuck!
I’m a free man. I believe in personal autonomy. Let those who don’t have these values live under unions!
Right - freedom for all including letting the left live how they want to live. Left - compulsory control including impacting the rights and freedom of the right whether they like it or not!
Yuck!
I’m a free man. I believe in personal autonomy. Let those who don’t have these values live under unions!
Right - freedom for all including letting the left live how they want to live. Left - compulsory control including impacting the rights and freedom of the right whether they like it or not!
What happens when government is reduced? The need for services, infrastructure, utilities, all the civic components a society needs to run don't go away.
So when the tax revenue is reduced by, say, tax cuts that the country can't afford (and, editorialising here because, well, this government is borrowing fucking billions for these tax cuts), how do these necessary services and essential goods, utilities get fulfilled?
Well, given we've had at least 42 years of this, that should be relatively easy to answer, yet somehow, there's an institutional memory of a goldfish amongst the media and those on the right. Or, more accurately, the right are utterly locked into neoliberalism as an ideology and doctrine.
And what does neoliberalism prescribe?
Well, glad you asked. Remarkably none of the right in these forums could even admit it existed even as little as two years ago, but I'm sure even they can tell you as well.
"THE MARKET WILL PROVIDE".
And what market is that exactly? Well, again, glad you asked. Is there even a market for such things? NO MATTER. Neoliberalism has you covered.
"Let's just make shit up out of thin air, and SELL OFF EVERYTHING THAT WE DON'T OWN TO PRIVATE INVESTORS".
Oh, and those private investors just happen to have funded the political parties who are pushing for this. Well, what a coincidence!!!
And now, all of a sudden, everything that has been owned by all of New Zealand, paid for by (OH HANG ON) NEW ZEALANDERS HARD EARNED TAX PAYER DOLLARS has been sold off in a firesale!
Who'd have thought?!?! Oh how we rejoiced!!!!
And now, all of a sudden, these private companies and investors own all of the things we need to survive!!! But of course, they have no obligation to care about that, because the only thing they need to do is make a profit. Stupendous!!!
And so, sometimes, realising the error of their ways (but only slightly, and only because an election is coming up) the government that sold everything off might try and, well, regulate to do pesky things like KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE.
And my gosh, thank your deity we have neoliberalism, because here it is all over again, and it's saying "We don't NEED regualation, we can POLICE OURSELVES!!!". Oh, the joy, the joy!!!
And then, of course, as private companies and investors do, they want to extract and increase their wealth EVEN MORE BY PROFITEERING - SO THEY CHARGE US FUCKING HEAPS AND STRIP US ALL OF OUR HARD EARNED MONEY!!! BRILLIANT!!!
Which of course feeds even more people into the new groundswell of industry - like PRISONS!!! PRIVATE HEALTH!!! AND SCHOOL LUNCHES!!!
And so this only ends when all our wealth has been given to the privileged few. And thus, the privileged few can say "Well done. That neoliberalism lark was a stroke of genius"
So when the tax revenue is reduced by, say, tax cuts that the country can't afford (and, editorialising here because, well, this government is borrowing fucking billions for these tax cuts), how do these necessary services and essential goods, utilities get fulfilled?
Well, given we've had at least 42 years of this, that should be relatively easy to answer, yet somehow, there's an institutional memory of a goldfish amongst the media and those on the right. Or, more accurately, the right are utterly locked into neoliberalism as an ideology and doctrine.
And what does neoliberalism prescribe?
Well, glad you asked. Remarkably none of the right in these forums could even admit it existed even as little as two years ago, but I'm sure even they can tell you as well.
"THE MARKET WILL PROVIDE".
And what market is that exactly? Well, again, glad you asked. Is there even a market for such things? NO MATTER. Neoliberalism has you covered.
"Let's just make shit up out of thin air, and SELL OFF EVERYTHING THAT WE DON'T OWN TO PRIVATE INVESTORS".
Oh, and those private investors just happen to have funded the political parties who are pushing for this. Well, what a coincidence!!!
And now, all of a sudden, everything that has been owned by all of New Zealand, paid for by (OH HANG ON) NEW ZEALANDERS HARD EARNED TAX PAYER DOLLARS has been sold off in a firesale!
Who'd have thought?!?! Oh how we rejoiced!!!!
And now, all of a sudden, these private companies and investors own all of the things we need to survive!!! But of course, they have no obligation to care about that, because the only thing they need to do is make a profit. Stupendous!!!
And so, sometimes, realising the error of their ways (but only slightly, and only because an election is coming up) the government that sold everything off might try and, well, regulate to do pesky things like KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE.
And my gosh, thank your deity we have neoliberalism, because here it is all over again, and it's saying "We don't NEED regualation, we can POLICE OURSELVES!!!". Oh, the joy, the joy!!!
And then, of course, as private companies and investors do, they want to extract and increase their wealth EVEN MORE BY PROFITEERING - SO THEY CHARGE US FUCKING HEAPS AND STRIP US ALL OF OUR HARD EARNED MONEY!!! BRILLIANT!!!
Which of course feeds even more people into the new groundswell of industry - like PRISONS!!! PRIVATE HEALTH!!! AND SCHOOL LUNCHES!!!
And so this only ends when all our wealth has been given to the privileged few. And thus, the privileged few can say "Well done. That neoliberalism lark was a stroke of genius"
Well, I guess the WHO will be sending in their soldiers when the time comes. I can’t access that link right now, but I anticipate being scared to death of all the shalls when I get there.
As an aside, I tried to think of something clever using “you and Who’s army” but I’m not up to the challenge today.
As an aside, I tried to think of something clever using “you and Who’s army” but I’m not up to the challenge today.
It is not compulsory in NZ to join a union. In fact, it is illegal for an employer to pressure you to join one.
How about ebola? You keen to waive your vaccination for that one?
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- #25,035
When I was at AUT, a struggling apprentice student going to night school 1 day every 2 weeks, never used any union benefits. Don’t even know what they did. But it was compulsory to be a member and steal $20 a week I didn’t have
Other examples - union only contact settlements where the employer can’t offer non unionised more; New employees automatically joining unions and you have to opt out.
And the ultimate - Labour fair pay agreements forcing pay and conditions on workplaces outside unions.
OK, this got a proper laff out of me. Well done.
So the Treaty of Waitangi quite likely predates the 8 hour work day, what a coincidence..
Well, you would be covered by the collective agreements in place, but that is not the same as compulsory union membership. And everyone in NZ has the right to negotiate an individual employment agreement.
I’m not following you there, sorry
You're talking about the student union correct?
Which supplies many benefits to the collective I'm sure, regardless of your own usage.
How much did you have to contribute as union fees out of the fees you paid per year?
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